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Cambridgeshire County Council - Full Council - 21 March 2023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwbAi8Q9e5Q
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17:06
good morning everybody um we have an issue downstairs we have such interest from the public today that
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we've got an overflow room uh downstairs with it should have a streaming connection to the meeting that's not
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currently working so we're going to delay by five minutes to see if we can get that working so the people downstairs can participate too
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especially since they've given their time to come and see this debate today would be sad if they couldn't take part
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or watch it at least
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thank you everybody the the problem with the streaming is resolved therefore I would like to welcome members of the
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public to this meeting of the council particularly those watching the live stream in the council's YouTube channel and everybody who's joined us here today
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in new show Hall the council supports the principles of transparency and encourages the filming recording and
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taking photographs at its meetings that are open to the public members are therefore advised that this meeting
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meeting may be filmed recorded or photographed can I ask members to turn
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their mobile phones to silent or vibrate whilst the meeting is taking place there is no fire alarm test scheduled for
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today so if the alarm sounds I will adjourn the meeting and we'll make our way downstairs by the fire escape in the
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corridor behind you the master point is at the far end of the building do I have
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any apologies so I'm on my list here I've got a
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pillars apologies from councilors Jonas King Dan Schumann oh sorry let's go through this properly
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actually yes please yes we have apologies from councilor Hoy
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and councilor Bachelor and councilor Smith will be attending from lunchtime and there's been an
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accident on the A14 which has delayed councilors uh Jonas King and councilor
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Dan Schumann who will come obviously when they they can thank you are there any other apologies
20:10
thank you the first item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes of the meeting the council held on the 7th of
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February 2023 the council is asked to agree these as a correct record if any
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member does not agree would you raise your hand now please
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thank you so those are agreed and updated motions log is also included in the published papers this meeting for
20:35
your information and in order to report on progress whilst I'm not be reopening debate on any Motion in emotions log I
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will take questions and comments if you wish to pursue actions further you'll need to contact the allocated officer
20:47
outside this meeting would anybody like to comment on the Motions log
20:53
no thank you
21:26
thank you uh Nexus chairs announcements and I have several announcements to make it is with great regret as I report the
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recent death of former County councilor Jeffrey Willard who represented the new market number one and Burwell decision
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on behalf of the conservative party from 1974 to 1993. the council's thoughts are
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with his family and friends at this very sad time I'd like to invite councilor goldsack who knew Jeffrey well to say a
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few words thank you chair um it's fair to say in Jeffrey Woolard
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we had a character who was full of life and Larger than Life I had the pleasure of uh Jeffrey being a customer of mine
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for many years and we shared many a a debate uh over a cup of tea which often
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made a half an hour meeting into a three-hour meeting um Jeffrey will be sadly missed by his
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community he actually only recently in the last 18 months packed up being a parish counselor uh sorry a town
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councilor for for soham and I would just like to pass on our condolences to Jeffrey and his family and thank him for
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all the work that he did for the people of Cambridge here thank you so can I ask the council to stand in
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memory of Jeff Jeffrey is
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it
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thank you thank you seated
23:49
as chair of the council I attended the following events the Cambridgeshire apprenticeship Awards magpass air
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ambulance reception with the Royal Patron her Royal Highness of Princess Royal hunting Huntington's pancake
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flipathon which I finished second just saying flag raising for the first anniversary
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of the invasion of Ukraine at new Shah Hall flag raising for Commonwealth and Saint Patrick's Day at NewsHour Hall and
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a visit to the company British College yesterday to Mark bringing online its new three million pound ground Source
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heat pump Energy System that concludes the announcements for today
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next is an item on the Declarations of Interest under this item members are asked to declare
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I'm sorry my mistake I skipped one thank you number three is reports of the
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county returning officer the next item is to note the report of the county returning officer which sets out the
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result of the recent by-election this is included in your agenda on page 18. I'd
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like to welcome councilor Jeffrey sief to his first four counseling council meeting
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thank you thank you chairman I look forward to working with Council colleagues and look forward to
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in amongst you all thank you very much thank you councilor sief
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so once again now next is an item on Declarations of Interest under this item members are asked to clear interests
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under the code of conduct in any item on the agenda for today's meeting if they're not already registered on the
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register of interests can I have any declarations now please councilor Bullard
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thank you chair I believe it's item 10A which is the counselor depressed motion on Photo voter ID I would like to
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declare it here after I take a took advice from the monitoring officer on this that I have been involved in some
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project in my not-for-profit third sector role along the lines of research on voter ID as well as advising the
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mayor of London and other stakeholders on the implementation about their ID including a project on voter ID
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dissemination so just so you know the perspective I'm coming from in this debate thank you
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thank you any other declarations
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counselor Goff yes thank you with respect to items seven and ten I have in my role as a
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past member of the gcp executive board been involved in previous steps in the development of those proposals
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thank you [Music] with declarations thank you
26:28
before we move to the next item I wish to inform members that as chair I've exercised my discretion to adapt the
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agenda of this meeting to make sure it can be as exclusive as possible to members of the public who are Keen to attend or follow key items online
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I have therefore used my discretion to allow two items which have already generated high levels of public interest
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to be dealt with at specific times on this agenda and be linked to any public questions or petitions related to them
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this means at this point members will hear public questions and receive a petition relating to the proposed
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Camborne to Cambridge C2C transport route you will then debate item 7 on your agenda then at approximately 1 pm
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full Council will debate the motion put by councilor Steve count this motion will follow a petition on the same
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subject being presented to members and public questions
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so item number five is public questions which allows members of the public to ask questions at the council meeting
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provided they have given Advance don't notice members will wish to note that given the significance of the items on
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the agenda today I have exercised my discretion and accepted any eligible public questions submitted before the
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deadline the council has received notice of six questions the content of which has been
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circulated electronically to all members and published on the council's website
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can I please ask Sarah Hughes campaign Support Officer for Cambridge sustainable travel Alliance to come
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forward and ask her question please oh she's on Zoom hello hello Sarah hello my question as
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you said is from the Cambridgeshire sustainable travel Alliance last week the Secretary of State for
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transport announced cuts to the budget for active travel schemes in England outside London it is estimated that
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two-thirds of the previously promised funding will be lost moreover central government funding for
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buses lacks a sustainable long-term plan in February the government did extend
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the bus recovery Grant but the decision was only announced at the very last minute so some companies had already
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registered short notice service withdrawals and the extension was for a mere three months
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fuel Duty currently generates the treasury approximately 25 billion pounds per year that is approximately 2.8
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percent of all receipts this Revenue will decline rapidly and eventually reduce to zero as the country
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transitions to electric vehicles the sale of new petrol and diesel cars and vans will end in just seven years time
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since MPS recently revealed there are no plans to implement or to consider implementing a road pricing scheme in
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the UK it appears there is no plan to replace this lost Revenue
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given the continued reduction of realistic funding from central government for sustainable transport
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does the chair of the highways and transport committee think that it is becoming increasingly urgent that our
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region does its utmost to Take Back Control of vital local bus services alongside improving active travel
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opportunities and work to deliver a reliable funding source for the future
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thank you councilor Becker thank you chair and firstly thank you
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Sarah for raising this important question and I'm sad you weren't able to make it and join us here in person today
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within this Administration we're clear how importantly we take active travel and it's disappointing that government
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is reducing its active travel funding nationally clearly walking cycling will remain
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absolutely vital to cambridgeshire's Future in Cambridge we've already seen that 30 of people cycling to work and our
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Administration is Keen to enable this kind of modal shift across the county we're assembling an active Travel Center
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of Excellence to maximize the funding we receive in this area and Lead the Way in developing it delivering active travel
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pipelines actor travel should not be considered a bolt-on and extra and nice to have but rather it should be
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integrated into how we consider transport the combined Authority bus strategy to develop a more convenient attractive and
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easy to use bus network was consulted on earlier this year and is up for approval at the cpca board in March work
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continues on the bus service improvement plan b-sip and the network review the cpca is investigating bus
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franchising which would indeed provide greater local control of the bus Network in terms of routes frequencies and
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integration the cpca is to provide an update on franchising in May where the mayor and cpca board would determine
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whether to progress franchising to public consultation this would be informed by an outline business case
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the gcp is exploring wider opportunities for sustainable Transport Funding through making connections and we'll be
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considering the consultation results in June thank you
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thank you would you like to I'd like to ask the supplementary question um yes please so thank you councilor
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Beckett and given that central government has just cut funding for active travel as I mentioned what will
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the County council do to secure long-term sustainable funding that they control to ensure continuous investment
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in sustainable transport thank you Sarah and that's obviously a
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really important question it's an item the gcp is being Consulting on as part of their sustainable travel zone they
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received the biggest response in their history of the 24 000 responses to their current uh proposals we'll obviously be
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looking at those responses and Reporting back but if the sustainable travel zone were to go ahead it would add funding to
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the public transport that we desperately need within this County thank you so before we go I'd just like
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to to remind all speakers that they have two minutes to ask their questions and I will be strict in applying in in uh
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applying that that limit so you can see the time as you speak on the screens in front of you so next is Anne gazley
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could I asked her to come forward and ask a question please with Council machine I think
32:36
thank you thank you sorry so from the UK biodiversity action plan
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descriptions traditional orchards are hot spots for biodiversity in the countryside
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supporting a wide range of wildlife as well as an array of nationally rare and nationally scared species
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the wildlife of Orchard sites depends on the Mosaic of habitats they encompass including fruit trees scrubs hedgerows
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non-fruit trees within the orchard the orchard floor habitats the Paul and
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Edward and Associated features as such they are designated habitats of primary
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importance and rightly accorded protections in the c2c4 council agenda item number
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seven it states that there will be a loss of habitat of principal importance Woodland and traditional Orchard so
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there is no question that the proposed route alignment will result in this loss to the environment
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what is in contention however is that the gcp report states that the effects are expected to be lessened to
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non-significant between year 15 and 30 on basis of compensation habitat
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off-site Steve Orum the orchard biodiversity officer for the people's trust for
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endangered species has stated unequivocally that the destruction of such a valuable habitat of principal
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importance cannot be compensated he goes on to add that this utterly destructive proposal can never achieve
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biodiversity net gain due to the vast amounts of damage that it will do to an ancient Orchard full of Veteran trees
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and the enormous impact of a road going through so much previously undamaged and
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unfragmented Countryside I would like to add that beyond the impact on the wildlife of bisecting the
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orchard which is already catastrophic it would no longer be practically not economically viable to manage at an
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auction and so would be lost in its entirety my question even assuming that
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counselors consider 30 years non-significant
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what proof have you been presented that such mitigation is even possible
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thank you councilor thank you thank you very much Anna and I would like to start by thanking Anna for
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showing me around the orchard recently we've all gone and seen it and I know she's done that for a lot of other
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people as well on the environmental statement we have got an environmental statement that is
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substantially complete we will make tweaks to graphics and Technical appendices but there's no outstanding
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work remaining that imparts upon the orchard in terms of the environmental mitigation
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the area where work continues is environmental mitigation is the ambition to go beyond the statutory 10 percent
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biodiversity net gain that is required for the scheme and achieve 20 percent we will continue those discussions to
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mitigate the impact of the scheme and I expect it will be a key component of the public inquiry that is going to follow
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this if indeed the decision today is to proceed with the tip was AO
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we have the gcp has extensively surveyed the orchard cotton Orchard was planted around 100 years ago and 11 of the
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original trees remain we fully appreciate the importance of the Orchard and for this reason we continue to
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explore ways of minimizing land take within it and to fashion and Alignment that limits the adverse effects for
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example avoiding all of the original trees where one is commonly impacted I would like to encourage Anna to please
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take part in these discussions with us going forward whatever happens today we do however also need to consider the
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impact that alternative alignments that don't impact the orchard would have on other sides of Interest including for
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example muddingly wood which is a site of special scientific interest and the American cemetery both of which would be
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affected if the alignment was brought towards Mattingly Road and we have to mitigate the impact against those as
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well thank you miss gaisley you have up to one minute to ask and a supplementary
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question if you choose thank you um
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woods and the American cemetery the alignment proposed that suggested by the Cambridge past present and future would
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not impact these at all in fact this Council has heard from the superintendent of the American cemetery
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who is in support of coton and our campaign my supplemental question would be have
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the members of this Council seen a report on Sky News just three days ago
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that highlights that for a similar mitigation scheme National highways
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planted 850 000 saplings as part of a 1.5 billion upgrade of the A14 between
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Cambridge and Huntington three-quarters of which have since died
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so we actually drove past all these these dead Twigs inside of a plastic tube
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Wildlife cannot Nest on Twigs they can't wait could you ask the question please
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thank you sorry okay have you seen the report that's my question thank you
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um thank you very much Anna I haven't but I will catch up on it I have seen other things I am afraid unfortunately
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we have shown that the impact of Madding live wood and the American cemetery is present in the alternative I mean that
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is and we will discuss at length this report here later in the later in the agenda which will show that that is
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actually a concern in terms of the Covenant we have with the American cemetery the Covenant uh includes line
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of sight which is a very very difficult um aspect to take into consideration but
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I will catch up on any material that has brought to my attention I would be very pleased to do that
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thank you next up is Mr Alan Tracy who will be
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asking a question of uh councilor Machining
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good morning in connection with the C2C busway I'm
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asking that the chair will please ask councilors to raise their hands if they're aware of the following Four
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Points number one the near Universal objections to the off-road section of the C2C
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busway from Community groups Parish councils thousands of petitioners cppf
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the National Trust and cpre and two the enormity of the environmental damage
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being inflicted by the off-road section of the busway on Greenbelt National Trust covented
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land especially the virtual destruction of the hundred-year-old Curtin Orchard
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which Anna's been talking about which is the largest tradition Orchard in the county
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the eighth largest in the UK and which barely gets a mention in the papers for this meeting
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and thirdly the BCR of 0.43 which Falls absurdly below the normal
39:53
Benchmark of two and fourthly the availability of an on-road alternative down mudding Hill
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for a mere 20 million pounds
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Miss Tracy can you can you confirm this question was for councilor machini but you seem to be addressing it to me
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um as as submitted I asked that would the chair please ask counselors okay um
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I thought you'd been advising this but I'm afraid the Constitution doesn't allow me to conduct uh opinion polls
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during a meeting and we with a very formal order of business so my answer that question is unfortunately I won't
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be able to do that sorry do you have a supplementary question um I do I'm I'm saddened of course I
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wasn't told of that um before the meeting otherwise it would have changed my question my supplementary question concerns the
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costing of the off-road busway um the department for transport requires
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optimism bias to be inserted into the early stages of costings
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typically up to 65 percent in other words a project costing 200 million May
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cost eventually 320 million possibly and so the optimism bias gets buried as the
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project proceeds we haven't heard what optimism bias has been included in the current level of
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costings for the off-road busway and I'd like to know the answer to that please foreign
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if you wish to answer the original question then answer supplementary afterwards that's all right that's not a
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problem at all and you know Mr and Dr Tracy are they have addressed the gcp board in the past and I am very pleased
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to see them here again today I had understood that the question was for me and therefore here I am I provided I
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prepared an answer um it is unfortunately not correct to suggest that there are new Universal
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objections to the scheme we have had extensive public consultations and ongoing engagement with residents
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businesses parish councils and key stakeholders which have shown that there is support for this scheme and there is
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support for the vital role it will play attacking existing and future transport challenges in Cambridge here I am
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reminded in particular of the views of cambon Community College Cambridge ahead and local representatives in Camborne
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the environmental impacts of the scheme have been scrutinized in detail including independently during the past
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consultations and will be scrutinized in detail again if the secretary of state does hold a public inquiry in terms of
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the orchard we fully appreciate the importance of it and we are working to minimize Landing within it as explained
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previously the BCR 0.43 refers to the transport user benefits only
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the business case estimates that wider economic impacts would increase the BCR to 1.47 or 3.48 depending on
42:57
additionality now this is we have to be very clear here this is an arithmetical mathematical games are playing
43:03
additionality means the homes and jobs that the city D oversigned to deliver
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the gcp has properly assessed the alternatives for improving public transport and these then this has been
43:13
confirmed by independent audit and by the cpca three times evidence does not support the assertion the on-road bus
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solution would perform better nor that an overall bus lane could be provided at a fraction of the cost there is
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insufficient space to deliver such a scheme at the more constrained points by moddingly wood in the American cemetery
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whilst also not addressing the M11 Junction 13 which remains a constraint so this is the answer to the original
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question as for the finances they are included in the most recent business case it's all online
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thank you thank you now can I ask Marilyn Tracy to come forward and ask
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her question please you have two minutes to ask the question and then a one minute supplementary question if you
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said choose
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and I believe this question is also for Council machine
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good morning the gcp paper relating to the camp onto
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Cambridge project under Section 2.1.2 it states the C2C scheme aims to provide
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better public transport walking and cycling options in the area west of Cambridge in order to improve Journey
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times and to address a transport constraint on growth by linking key
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employment and housing sites together and with the city center cambridge's two largest and rapidly
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growing sites of employment are the biomedical campus to the southeast and the Science Park to the north
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taking real-time data from Google Maps on the morning I wrote this question I
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found that the journey times were as follows cambond Cambridge science park by the
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a428 and the A14 22 minutes by Grange Road 67 minutes
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hamborne to the biomedical campus Adam Brooks site by the a428 and the M11 30
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minutes by Grange Road 44 minutes the West Cambridge site
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may become a major size of employment in the future but highways England are
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looking at making the garden interchange and always Junction which will may solve
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potential problems of congestion on the a1303 using an inbound bus lane on existing
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infrastructure will dramatically reduce costs give better Journey times and leave the environment intact
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given the above could you please explain the rationale for spending over 200 million on an off-road busway which
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transects the green belt destroys a priority habitat and extends Journey times
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thank you Council machine again thank you very much Dr Tracy it's lovely to see you again
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a bus strategy is included in the schemes business case and it demonstrates the benefits of the
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proposed scheme and I'm afraid unfortunately when we make decisions like these we have to consider a rather
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more complicated pictures than what Google Maps is telling us today unfortunately the growth of the West
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Cambridge site is happening right now you can see the growth you can see the buildings the building site along muddingly Road and the South Cambridge
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here in Cambridge local plans they make Provisions for 2 350 dwellings cambon West born Airfield 3500 dwellings West
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Cambridge 10 000 jobs the local plan provides for and depends on for its success on these in terms I've got an
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interchange this has previously been reviewed and discounted or as the most truthful statement would be there is
46:52
currently no plan to carry on with it from on the part of Highways England there is no access from the a408 to the
46:58
m110a1 307 there was no upgrade provided as part of the A14 works and there are
47:04
no plans to provide such an upgrade it is also worth noting that provision of major newslet roads than Junction
47:10
upgrades with costly complex and require significant land take with unknown environmental impacts the evidence does
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not support the assertion that an on-road bus solution will perform as well nor that we could provide that at a
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fraction of the cost and here I'm afraid I will have to refer back to the answer I've just given in order to avoid
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running out of time but thank you again for coming Dr Tracy would you I'd like to ask the
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supplementary question uh yes please um
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taking a journey via Grange Road is probably not going to be the optimum
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route to either the Science Park or the biomedical campus for those living in Camborne and Bourne
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if you take these commuters out of your calculations potential commuters out of
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your calculations where does that leave your business case with its woeful BCR
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of 0.43 thank you chairman and we can't take
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arbitrary commuters out of the business case that doesn't stuck up and at the same time you don't stop in Grange Road
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the idea is the Grange Road is the last bit where you can have an off-road solution after which the plan is that
48:24
the boss would follow the U route which is quite successful so it would connect people to the city center and Cambridge
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station and once again we have addressed the BCR before and I am not willing to
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reduce arguments about people's livelihoods and jobs and the growth that has been imposed upon us to a number
48:42
like that but thank you anyway thank you next up is um Heather do
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Heather Dukane grenade no oh sorry my mistake next up is David Cairns
48:55
transport lead for cotton parish council could you please come forward and ask your questions you have two minutes to
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ask your questions and then one minute for an additional supplementary question if you choose
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and this is also for Council Machining
49:17
thank you chair good morning ladies and gentlemen um the papers before you and the question for you is is clear
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in the papers you have seen the business case says the benefits cost ratio of
49:30
this project is low that's the adjective used in the papers in front of you
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uh you've already heard councilor messini say that there are further benefits to developed from other developments such as housing and
49:42
businesses but of course those would come whatever bus scheme is chosen the title of C2C is Camborne to
49:50
Cambridge in developing this project Cambridge to Camborne is not a priority
49:57
and there is no congestion plus Roots sorry bicycle routes are already being provided by the excellent
50:04
project of the Greenways from gcp so my question is as follows will the
50:09
will the council consider examining an inward bound bus route only to deliver
50:15
this benefits thank you thank you very much indeed
50:23
um and welcome um as we've explained a few times so we have subjected this business case to an
50:29
independent audit in 21 already and I will have to repeat because this is very important the scheme is intended to
50:36
address not just current issues but the planned future growth along the corridor
50:42
as such the benefits of the scheme will increase considerably when the new homes and jobs plan along the Route are
50:47
required by the local plan are included and I'm not having this dismissed or poopoo this is the reason we're doing
50:53
this the provision of a Greenway does not nullify the need for an active travel path the provision of three new active
51:00
routes convert on maddingly road and end-to-end provision along the C2C route will play a vital role connecting
51:06
communities to the west of Cambridge and they will help the sustainable growth of the site and this is part of an
51:11
integrated infrastructure plan which the city deal was required to deliver which will improve our Creek in transport
51:16
Network and create better links between homes and jobs we have in terms of your question about on-road explored all of
51:23
them including the inbound and the evidence does not support the assertion that the location would perform as well
51:30
and once again I will have to refer you to the answer I've given before on that
51:36
thank you you have now I have up to one minute for a supplementary question
51:41
I think chair and thank you colleagues you've heard the answer which I'm sure councilors are not surprised by second
51:48
says the choice now is before you um the future direction of this discussion will either be a public
51:55
inquiry lawyers and court or an opportunity to do something together I'm
52:00
sure that many of you who live locally are fed up to back teeth with this project I'm sure that many of you live
52:06
further away it's a long way away and you know it's not really in your position to care very much but this of
52:12
course is crucial for our small part of Cambridgeshire so the question to to you all and the question to you councilman
52:18
genius is this a project do you like to together with us and deliver the benefits without destroying the
52:24
countryside or is something to intend to pursue as planned thank you
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and the answer to that of course is that the project if the decision doesn't go ahead today we will
52:39
respond appropriately if decision does go ahead today that will be a final decision for the Secretary of State
52:45
that's how these things actually work and I would like to actually not allow people to think that we're just
52:52
doing these two people this has been 10 years in the making four public consultations an environmental impact assessment three independent reviews
52:58
we've been doing this together with people for as long as it's been possible most of which without anything to do
53:03
with me because I've only come here really quite recently and we will continue to do this together
53:09
with people as much as is possible but we can't make Alternatives viable when
53:15
they are not thank you thank you then finally in this section can I ask Mrs Heather De Queen chair of
53:22
North newnham residence Association to come forward and ask her question please you have two minutes to ask a question
53:28
and then one minute to ask a supplementary question and this question for changes to councilor Machining
53:52
chair thank you for the opportunity to put a question to this meeting as you said I'm the chair of the north Newnan
53:58
residence Association so I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle from some of the previous speakers the
54:05
nnra supports efforts to improve public transport links into Central Cambridge from its satellite communities
54:12
they are a key part of the citizen cities development strategy we welcome the decision backed up by the
54:19
environment impact assessment to direct the route from the University's West Cambridge site into the city via the
54:26
rifle range track and not Adams Road the segregation of traffic is essential
54:32
to protecting the safety of all Road users our week-long traffic survey in 2019
54:39
revealed that Adams Road is the busiest peak time cycle route in the city with
54:45
well over 800 bicycle movements an hour at its busiest time as well as more than
54:51
200 pedestrian movements these numbers have increased since then and will
54:56
continue to increase as the University moves more of its departments into the West Cambridge site
55:03
however the scheme to resist it to restrict car parking in the north newnam area which for this purpose includes
55:09
Clark Maxwell Road not part of our organization shows no signs of progress
55:15
we estimated in November 2015 yes more than seven years ago that there were
55:21
about 450 cars a day parked in our area alone that would probably be increased
55:27
by well over a hundred if Clark Maxwell Road were included most of the cars seem to belong to
55:33
commuters a well thought out parking scheme could offer a welcome supplementary Revenue
55:39
stream to the council but the major concern is the hazard that these vehicles represent to produce
55:45
pedestrians and cyclists residents and users of college buildings
55:50
can can struggle to get in and out of their drive safely could you get your question please sorry sight lines are
55:56
obscured and turning circles reduced the junction of Wilberforce and Adams Road with the entrance to the University
56:02
sports ground and the start of the Curtin footpath is a particularly hazardous area
56:08
will the County Council please commit to carrying out the necessary work in consultation with local residents to
56:15
make Adams Road and the surrounding streets and Junctions safe for all their users
56:20
Council Machining thank you very much in this particular question very welcome Heather thank you
56:25
very good to see you I will be extremely brief I understand the gcp has committed to undertake the improvements on Adams
56:31
Road this will complement the wider come of the Cambridge scheme and as part of the city deal sustainable transport
56:36
program work is ongoing it's actually currently being done now it is scheduled for delivery in 2024 and we will write
56:43
you with a detail about that um you have one minute for supplementary
56:49
question if you choose I don't I don't need to ask very much of a supplementary question I welcome your assurances
56:55
I'm consciously during the morning you've emphasized the importance of integrated schemes joining this up with
57:00
the cycleway um what have you can you please assure us that that's not going to delay things any longer and confirm the sort of
57:07
timetable that you've uh indicated in writing after this meeting I absolutely do thank you thank you
57:16
thank you that concludes the questions for this morning but we will be hearing more public questions this afternoon and
57:22
before the debate on The Making Connections proposal petition and so
57:28
next is a petition which allows members of the public to present petitions in accordance with the agreed protocol I am
57:35
proposing now to take one petition from the public and take the other petition this afternoon details of the petition
57:40
have been emailed to members and published on the council's website prior to the prior to the council meeting
57:46
this petition relates to the Camborne the Cambridge busway and was received by the deadline to allow spokesperson to
57:52
speak it contains 2 407 signatures um and now I can invite the petition
57:58
organizer or their nominee to speak to the meeting so could I ask Mr James littlewood chief executive Cambridge
58:05
past present and future to speak to the petition you have three minutes
58:10
morning councilors I'm presenting this petition on behalf of my charity as well as the Parish councils of coton and
58:17
Hardwick coat and busway Action Group coach and loves pollinators and save the West fields
58:23
as of this morning 7 500 people have signed a petition asking you to save the coat and green Corridor spare
58:29
cambridge's largest remaining traditional Orchard and find a better transport solution
58:35
part of the gcp's proposed bus route Road runs through land that was purchased by my charity in the 1930s and
58:42
protected by the National Trust to preserve the historic setting of coat in the Mattingly Villages and the valued
58:48
Landscapes around them David Attenborough has recently said never has there been a more important
58:54
time to invest in our own Wildlife to try and set an example for the rest of the world
59:00
and restore our once wild Isles for future Generations we submitted a proposal to the gcp in
59:07
2021 that would avoid causing irrecoverable harm to ecology and landscape and with fewer carbon
59:13
emissions it also addresses the problem that this scheme is trying to solve which is
59:19
congestion on the A3 a1303 maddingly Hill from the roundabouts at the a42a to
59:24
the M11 in Cambridge bus lanes and priority measures would enable buses to bypass this congestion
59:30
there is enough space for our scheme without harming maddingly wood and the American cemetery I know I've measured
59:36
it and an independent auditor confirmed our scheme is viable and worthy of consideration
59:42
our proposal would meet the requirement in the local plan to provide a reliable public transport link between Camborne
59:49
and Cambridge our proposal would support buses running directly to the biomedical campus via
59:54
the M11 and the Science Park via the a428 as well as the central Cambridge
1:00:00
in our scheme the cycle route does not go over the highest hill in Cambridge but instead follows the value along a
1:00:06
route of a bridal way a route that's already being progressed as far as Hardwick as part of the camberton greenway
1:00:12
at a fraction of the cost our scheme would achieve a very high value for money treasury rating compared to the
1:00:18
poor rating of The Proposal in front of you last week's budget confirmed the government's commitment to progress
1:00:25
East-West Railway as far as Cambridge via Camborne this will offer significantly faster Journey times to
1:00:31
cambridge's main employment sites than the bus Road well further weakening the already poor business case for the bus
1:00:38
Road our scheme would also have a fraction of the maintenance costs reducing the council's long-term liabilities
1:00:45
Peter Blake has informed me that he would not commission an assessment of our scheme unless he was instructed to
1:00:50
do so by the gcp board today seven and a half thousand people are asking you to require that appraisal
1:00:58
to be carried out so that you can make an informed decision about which option represents the best value for public
1:01:04
money the environment and future Generations thank you
1:01:11
thank you for that petition which is going to inform our next item on the Camborne to Cambridge busway transports
1:01:18
and works act order before I proceed to the rest of the agenda can I remind members about the
1:01:24
audio and voting system in order to register speak can you please raise your
1:01:30
hand using the old-fashioned method and Sebastian cancer Kindersley will add
1:01:35
you to my list of speakers when I invite you to speak please press your mic button
1:01:41
if you wish to raise a point of order or a point of personal explanation you need to raise your hand and Shout chair do
1:01:48
not press the button I intend to be very strict about both the raising of a point of order or a point of personal
1:01:54
explanation raising a point of order means that a member believes that there has been a breach of the council water
1:01:59
procedure or law so require the member to indicate the rule of law which he or she considers has been broken if this
1:02:06
belief is challenged I as chair will be the final arbiter a point of personal explanation may only
1:02:13
relate to some material part of an earlier speech by the members raising the point which may appear to have been
1:02:18
misunderstood in the present debate again I will be the final Arbiter I'd also like to remind members that if a
1:02:24
member Rises on either of these points and the other member currently on their feet should immediately sit down until
1:02:30
that point has been determined next is item seven better public
1:02:36
transport Camborne to Cambridge project yes Council goldsack yes of course thank
1:02:43
you thank you chair this is to be absolutely unequivocable and it's actually to the monitoring officer and
1:02:49
it's to prevent anybody being caught in a trap of predetermination we've had a long and very careful debate on
1:02:57
predetermination in other fields and yet we've heard this morning that there are
1:03:02
people in the room who have been involved in this very subject for the gcp for quite some period of time I'm
1:03:09
just wondering if the monitoring officer can confirm that she is totally comfortable that said people can and and
1:03:15
are allowed duly allowed to take part in the debate and therefore have a valid vote at the end of it even though they
1:03:22
have shown some determination earlier by being involved in the project foreign
1:03:28
I have advised all members about predetermination as you're aware without training
1:03:34
um I've sent a reminder about predetermination um yesterday that all members had
1:03:39
received it's then for a member to make that decision based on the advice that
1:03:45
I've given as to whether they're predetermined if they are then they shouldn't take part
1:03:50
um in the debate or in the decision and that advice has been very clear so all
1:03:56
numbers have been advised accordingly thank you for that I'm just a little bit worried for the for the members involved
1:04:01
in terms of conflict of interest you know the the gentleman Mr littlewood has explained that this is likely to finish
1:04:08
up in in an independent inquiry et cetera Etc and people may well be opening themselves up now haven't been
1:04:14
previously involved in this campaign and from what you've done on the waste department in terms of double headers
1:04:19
using that as a guideline I would ask for some advice on that and I you know I don't want these members to be in
1:04:26
trouble further down the line
1:04:31
um as you know I have advised members and I can't make them do something all I
1:04:36
can do is advise them of the position and it's then for the member to make the decision as to and what they do but
1:04:44
um I've taken every step available to remind members what their obligations are and obviously they know the risks to
1:04:51
the authority and that was made very clear in the training um if they don't consider this
1:04:57
appropriately and don't act accordingly okay thank you very much thank you thank
1:05:03
you councilor goldsack next uh sorry next is item seven Pub better public transport Camborne to Cambridge project
1:05:10
and I asked the deputy leader of the council and the council's representative on a greater Cambridge partnership
1:05:15
Council machini to move that recommendation set out on pages 19 to 21 of the report be adopted and asked the
1:05:23
leader of the council Council left singer to second
1:05:33
seconded so would anybody like oh so next up I
1:05:41
think we have an amendment from the conservatives who's going to move the amendment foreign
1:05:50
would you like to do your opening speech I thought you declined sorry um that's okay
1:05:57
yeah quite a lot of my voice today but I shall oblige um thank you thank you very much this
1:06:02
this first speech is by way of introduction of the report in front of you today this Council established the greater
1:06:09
Cambridge partnership when it signed the city deal with government it did so in 2014 when Council account was still with
1:06:16
us today was leader of this Council he and his group agreed to the city deal objectives of supporting the delivery of
1:06:22
33 500 planned homes and 45 000 new jobs in the greater Cambridge area as did the
1:06:29
conservatives who at the time control South Cambridge District Council this Council agreed that greater Cambridge
1:06:36
required infrastructure investment and that the city deal would undertake an ambitious program to enhance transport
1:06:42
capacity in the area and Link areas of population with areas of employment this Council again we are in 2014 at
1:06:49
this point ask the gcp to develop this program and delegated authority to them to do so in return this Council secured
1:06:57
500 million pounds of much needed investment in our local infrastructure a high quality public transport scheme
1:07:04
between cambon and Cambridge was identified in the county council's own transfer strategy for Cambridge and South camps back in 2014. again we're
1:07:12
still in 2014 councilor count is the leader it was agreed that such as scheme
1:07:17
was essential to support the delivery of the South Cambridge here and Cambridge local plans in particular Camborne West
1:07:24
2350 homes bone Airfield 3 500 homes West Cambridge 10 000 jobs none of this
1:07:31
is deliverable without a high quality fast and segregated public transport link between cambon and major employment
1:07:38
sites in West Cambridge the gcp has undertaken over a number of years that has to balance the completing
1:07:44
the competing interest maximizing benefits minimizing impacts and ensuring a viable scheme would emerge
1:07:52
it has consulted extensively and the scheme has changed following those consultations the location of the park
1:07:58
and right side on-road running through Hardwick and use of the rifle range instead of Adams Road all emerged
1:08:04
following consultation the scheme on the table today a course with the current and previous local
1:08:10
transfer plans and in the words of EWR company it complements it doesn't negate
1:08:15
or replace it complements the emerging East-West rail proposals the scheme has
1:08:21
been developed in line with h and treasury green book and the DFT Guidance the proposals have been reviewed for the
1:08:28
combined Authority twice in 2019 and 2020. at the request of the previous mayor of the combined Authority
1:08:34
confirming that the preferred route is the optimal solution the gcp also commissioned an independent
1:08:41
audit to review the scheme in 2021 for which all interested parties were invited to submit submissions the audit
1:08:49
concluded and we will talk about this later the audit concluded that a robust process had been employed that the
1:08:55
proposed alternative was the best one and that there was no reason why the scheme should not proceed
1:09:00
the purpose of the decision today is to agree to submit a transport and works act order application to the department
1:09:06
for transport seeking permission to deliver the scheme this application is granted by the secretary of state would
1:09:13
allow the gcp to proceed with the development of the scheme beginning with negotiations with landowners affected
1:09:19
the secretary of state is expected to hold the public inquiry which we would welcome to allow the voices of all
1:09:25
interested parties to be heard once again the secretary of state will make the final decision
1:09:31
failure to progress this scheme would jeopardize future game reviews of the city deal potentially failing to unlock
1:09:38
further government investment into greater Cambridge but this isn't the reason why we should proceed today I
1:09:45
don't want anybody to come away thinking that we're sitting here in an ivory Tower taking boxes on a spreadsheet our
1:09:51
job as representatives of our residents is to make decisions that allow our residents to thrive where they live if
1:09:58
we don't deliver this program we put homes jobs under wider economic success at risk
1:10:03
we stunt the educational attainment of the Next Generation trapped far away from the opportunities they deserve to
1:10:10
take advantage of cambon Village College says the following
1:10:15
for those students who do not have access to a car under a lift or the financial support to utilize taxes it is
1:10:23
the lack of Transport links between cambon and Cambridge that is the main factor that shapes the decisions they
1:10:28
make regarding the post-16 education at present many pupils have to travel
1:10:34
over three hours per day this clearly impacts on their studies their mental and their social well-being we support
1:10:40
the proposals put forward by the gcp and we hope you will too I commend these proposals to council
1:10:46
thank you chairman thank you councilor singer would you like to speak now or reserve your right
1:10:52
I'll reserve my right thank you thank you so then we should move on to the amendment from the conservatives I think
1:10:59
councilor goldsack you're going to move that yes I will thank you uh chair
1:11:04
um I'm I'm stepping in for uh Steve today I'm very proud to do so
1:11:09
on the amendment it's all before you it's all in front of I don't plan to read that but I do plan to have a few words about it
1:11:15
having looked at all angles I can in the debate in reading and listening and watching reports from all elements it
1:11:21
appears basically obvious to me that this amendment is needed to bring some sense in order to things
1:11:26
to proceed as the original proposal lays out is fundamentally flawed no comparison with a second opinion not
1:11:33
active listening nor engagement with locally impacted and then a third area last week the government's budget
1:11:39
confirmed the intention for the East-West railing this will be a huge project changing the travel for the
1:11:45
travel plans for the clanbourne to Cambridge area therefore who in their right mind would want to make this
1:11:50
decision now that could costly and very costly and out of line with the need opinion and desire of those within a few
1:11:58
months we're talking about July the only sensible course of action here is to stop pause and think support as a
1:12:05
minimum requested comparison with The cppf Proposal do this and present a
1:12:10
valid comparison you then have an agreed possible way forward this can all be done between now and July then subject
1:12:17
to East and West rail decision finally if we have any way of avoiding the destruction of a valued and much loved
1:12:23
Orchard we owe it to all in that community and The Wider community D to look at all angles at this time there
1:12:29
appears to be a whole number of gcp driven consultations that have been delivered in my own opinion as
1:12:35
cambridge-centric rather than a full engagement and genuine listening to those fully involved this amendment
1:12:41
simply says doesn't say no it says make the right decision make that bill on not
1:12:47
myopic research and consultation but choose to make the right decision with a full analysis against the options
1:12:53
available and the understanding of the East-West railroad whatever the decision one should always weigh up the
1:12:58
Alternatives evaluate knowing all the facts that simply isn't the case without this amendment with the removal of the
1:13:04
cam Metro Bus has seen the answer to absolutely everything at this moment in time like most members I've been
1:13:10
inundated with emails and I've read them all if a roadbase solution is truly viable and many credible sources tell us
1:13:16
that it is why aren't we looking at it and you know we've heard today the gcp would say well we have looked at it
1:13:21
we'll look at it again the road is wide enough I would ask you to I've heard no one say do nothing but have watched read
1:13:28
and heard some good arguments that make me proud to step in today and ask the present this amendment and do so for
1:13:34
what's right for the local people for committees on this route and for the people of Cambridge here in full if the
1:13:41
outcome is then as projected maybe a significant win for the local environment too I urge you all to think
1:13:46
why you are elected in the first place who you represent and about the decisions you're going to make this is
1:13:52
not a decision for a whip this is one for members conscience and a free thing thanks for listening and thanks for
1:13:58
Steve count for stepping up with such a good Amendment thank you thank you do you have a second of that
1:14:04
motion thank you Jim and yes I'm pleased to second I'm happy to speak now if that's
1:14:10
thank you um members I would like to thank councilor
1:14:15
Steve count for putting forward this amendment um and I'd also like to thank members of the public who've shown such great
1:14:21
interest in this subject um and I'd also like to reassure the chair
1:14:27
of coke Parish Council that those of us that are further away in the county do care about our Countryside many of us
1:14:33
represent rural communities uh and care deeply about the Cambridgeshire Countryside
1:14:40
chairman I have a professional background in landscape design one of the first things I learned was to
1:14:47
work with what already exists rather than against it The gcp Proposal seems light on the with
1:14:52
and heavy on the against the benefits of the C2C scheme are many
1:14:59
but do they outweigh the cost just because the gcp can raise the
1:15:04
financial cost does not automatically justify the ecological cost and I'm yet to be convinced
1:15:10
we really should not so readily sacrifice the value of our Countryside at the altar of Cambridge City
1:15:17
the current gcp proposal before us sits with me as an option of Last Resort
1:15:23
without a true and detailed comparison on the honor with the on-road option we need not be in that position
1:15:30
we owe it to ourselves and local residents to delay and consider the on-road option more fully
1:15:36
Gemini urge members to support this amendment thank you
1:15:42
thank you so we moved to the debate on the amendment would anybody like to speak in a debate
1:15:48
Council attorney thank you chairman I'm going to address a few things that have been said leading
1:15:54
up to the amendment so that I can explain why I'm going to be supporting the amendment so first of all councilor Machinery made
1:16:00
a number of points about when the gcp was set up Council account was in charge of the council I wanted to make the
1:16:06
point that setting up an organization with good intentions does not make you responsible for every crazy decision
1:16:11
they take until the end of time um I also wanted to raise a point that a number of speakers were cut off and
1:16:17
forced to go to the question chairman I totally respect that's within your remit but I would just I would urge caution
1:16:23
because it's quite normal for people to use their two minutes to build up some context and Preamble in order yes
1:16:29
chairman sit down please sure we're following the constitution of the
1:16:36
council which allows questioners to ask two minutes yeah I'm not going to get into a situation of arbitrarily allowing some people to ask longer questions
1:16:42
because that's not fair I spoke to every single one of the questioners before this meeting and inform them that I
1:16:48
would be um enforcing the times time scale so please could you continue with your speech but let's not uh question my
1:16:54
authority in this room thank you I think I made a point chairman I wasn't questioning your Authority and I didn't mention the two minute time limit so
1:17:01
those are incorrect objections in my view and silencing me doesn't make it untrue
1:17:06
um so it back to what councilmancini was saying her um her speaking to me sounded
1:17:11
very bureaucratic and I'm sure she has good intentions but everything she was saying referring to previous uh polls
1:17:18
and studies and none of this sounds like what people feel and when people are
1:17:23
watching they want to hear us reflect some of what they feel some of what they're concerned about they want to hear a set piece with a lot of words and
1:17:29
no emotion what they want to hear is that you care about the things they care about so what's actually happened here it
1:17:35
seems to me that a mistake has been made a poor policy has been brought forwards and when that happens you've got two
1:17:42
choices you can either double down and set your jaw and say I'm sticking with this no matter what or you can say hands up okay
1:17:48
I've made a mistake let's have a rethink clearly from the force of opinion about
1:17:53
the very valid concerns over these proposals that second option is the better one and I would urge people to do
1:17:59
it by supporting this amendment thank you
1:18:05
thank you councilor Goff thank you chair
1:18:11
um when one doesn't want to make a decision the easiest thing to do is ask more data
1:18:17
or to rerun some part of the analysis to defer the decision the appeal
1:18:22
of taking another look the amendment let's have a look at the amendment it looks comprehensive it
1:18:28
isn't the proposed work stream in the amendment is a partial and selective
1:18:34
list of aspects of the two options where is the assessment for example of
1:18:39
the impact during construction particularly relevant for any on-road scheme it's not on the list it's
1:18:46
absolutely essential what about Journey time reliability rather than just mean times whereas the
1:18:52
assessment of the likely impact on active travel take up not on the list what about safety not on the list would
1:19:00
you rerun the consultation surely you'd have to add these things to the proposed work
1:19:05
stream in the amendment and all of the other relevant strategic criteria and the consultation consider inevitable
1:19:13
variations within those schemes and we will essentially be right back at the Quality zip and quantitative assessment
1:19:19
process that has already been undertaken in the outline business case and is well documented in these papers
1:19:27
the process was comprehensive and it will not be improved by a partial
1:19:32
process as proposed by this amendment but even more than that the gcp already asked for another look
1:19:40
given the elapsed time the Executive Board of the gcp requested an independent audit of the C2C project
1:19:48
this amendment largely duplicates the work of that audit the order explicitly considered whether
1:19:55
the assumptions and constraints upon which the preferred route selection had taken place was still valid
1:20:01
it considered uncertainties including EWR the conclusion of that was clear
1:20:07
and I quote from the audit the audit has concluded that the scheme is in alignment with the national regional and
1:20:12
local policies on the economy and transport stakeholder engagement has been carried
1:20:18
out in a robust Manner and the business case development followed the IHM treasury green book in the department
1:20:24
for transports methodology the appraisal that's been carried out in a robust Manner and the economic analysis and
1:20:31
financial case remains valid the independent audit also commented directly on the on-road solution
1:20:39
common a18 the in-way in Highway proposal for a high quality public
1:20:44
transportation along the a1303 are short-term measures that are consistent
1:20:49
with the C2C scheme objectives however this does not invalidate the assumptions
1:20:55
and constraints for the preferred option as a long-term solution to meet the growth in travel demand along the
1:21:01
corridor given the independent audit and those conclusions there really is no case for
1:21:07
another piece of work before this project goes to the Secretary of State and the likely planning inquiries where
1:21:13
these assumptions and Analysis will once again be tested let's dispense with this amendment and attempt to avoid and the
1:21:19
attempt to avoid making a decision and get onto the substantive manner thank you
1:21:30
Council account
1:21:35
uh thank you chair I wasn't sure I was going to speak today but notice there's no other speakers and quite frankly
1:21:42
there's so much misinformation going on that I'm obligated to speak
1:21:48
um before I go into the level of detail I'd like to point out what's being asked today isn't to say yes or no to the to
1:21:55
the guided busway is to say yes or no we've got any amendment to compare a
1:22:01
very specific route put forward by the cppf to the guided by site on some on
1:22:08
some specific um points now regarding that
1:22:13
people are trying to say that those have been compared
1:22:19
that that an audit has been done to compare them that that's just incorrect it's totally incorrect so what has been
1:22:25
compared in the past have been initial proposals by the gcp about on-road
1:22:30
off-road Grassroots but not against this last remaining principled objection
1:22:38
it is a very specific length of road that is being designated as on-road with
1:22:45
some very specific holding patterns for buses they've been worked out by transport Engineers
1:22:51
including Edward Lee who very many of you know qualified people and it's been looked at
1:22:57
and I've sat through the meeting and I thought where it was presented and I thought you know what I don't know if
1:23:04
this works or not I don't know if this will deal with all the traffic as it's claimed or not but I have a transport
1:23:10
expert actually putting their neck and their reputation on the line telling me it will the alternative is the GPC proposal that
1:23:18
the audit trail that the auditor had said we did the right thing getting to
1:23:23
where we are today it's a bit like Sherlock Holmes you know saying when you when you rule out the impossible however
1:23:30
improbable what's left must be the truth but what happened was that ruling out
1:23:35
the impossible earlier on in the game they didn't consider everything which this final alternative has come down to
1:23:43
now if I was standing here and saying you needed a fully worked up solution to
1:23:50
compare this with good enough for a transport and works act order it would
1:23:55
take one two years it would and I think everybody would
1:24:01
write be right I mean and say no further delays you can't you can't expect the people of Cambridge camel the the
1:24:07
developers to put up with that level of that delay however I very carefully put in the
1:24:13
motion that I wanted this back in front of this chamber in July and I really wanted that
1:24:19
because I knew there was no chance of a long delay and I think that the Stark differences between the two schemes 20
1:24:26
million versus 220 million a BCR of 0.43 which
1:24:32
may actually be somewhere in the region of 10. or higher there's certainly over
1:24:37
five for those for the other scheme those sort of pieces of information will be very quick
1:24:44
and easy for our officers to access and where they can't access a definitive
1:24:51
answer and absolutely cast iron guaranteed one such as
1:24:56
will both of these satisfy planning permission for the developers to come
1:25:01
forward I've asked for officers best judgment so that we as counselors in July can
1:25:08
come back and look at the two schemes side by side which have never ever
1:25:14
been compared I think we owe it to the people who put the work and effort into this to wait
1:25:22
until July to get that and also have confidence in the
1:25:28
impartiality of our officers I'm not convinced that we've arrived at where we are today
1:25:34
because everybody's got the same interests in mind but asking for in this
1:25:39
way for the County Council to ask an impartial appraisal using County Council officers I'm convinced that we would get
1:25:45
an impartial one because there is full knowledge that a public inquiry is on its way that's how transport works at
1:25:52
all works there will be a public inquiry so if we make the comparison and to the
1:25:58
using the officer's best judgment it is not truly impartial then that would that would struggle
1:26:05
I want to go on to the the olive branch of friendship that I'm going to try and
1:26:11
drag some of the um people that are opponents of this game over onto my side ring
1:26:17
the way I see the transport and works act or moving forward with the business case of 0.43 will be extremely difficult
1:26:24
in May if East West rail announces Camborne on the route
1:26:30
by delaying to July for that single reason alone all those uplifting land
1:26:35
values would fall away and the business case would fall away so please ask you to come with me
1:26:42
not asking for the moon not asking times for counselor just asking for a delay till July so thank you very much sure
1:26:49
thank you everybody next I have councilor hathorn
1:26:57
so I I haven't written this in advance I am speaking from the heart and I just want to talk about
1:27:03
being in the really fortunate position of living in a village which has both an on-road bus service and a busboy bus
1:27:10
service and whilst the on-road bus service is on the Amber list is always subject to cuts
1:27:17
throughout the period where bus Cuts have happened Stagecoach has been recruiting bus drivers for the busway
1:27:23
service because these services are so reliable they're so effective they're so
1:27:28
good so many people want to use them and I just think it's almost impossible for
1:27:33
an on-road bus bus connection to be as good as a busway and what we're trying
1:27:38
to do is to give people opportunities the bus way that exists delivers
1:27:45
hundreds thousands of children into school every day they have a great deal of choice about which schools they can
1:27:52
access that's what we're voting for we're voting for a busway which is a really really effective means of public
1:27:57
transport which give people opportunities connect people that means that
1:28:03
means that you have a rock solid bus service which is something really really hard to deliver
1:28:11
thank you councilor sharp please thank you chair
1:28:17
um I think this amendment seeks to bring
1:28:22
some sense of sensibility to the arrogance of the gcp
1:28:29
um this is a prime example that it's got no master plan and just bringing in piecemeal schemes but the amendment also
1:28:36
seeks to look at the alternative scheme on the C2C in an open way we've heard that it's been examined pre previously
1:28:44
but um we I think we owe it to a hunt 100 year old orchard that we actually go
1:28:51
down that route beforehand this has been mentioned earlier we we've got East-West rail we heard
1:28:58
um the chancellor last week say that there will be a decision during May and more information obviously will come
1:29:05
out from that so I I think it's absolutely crazy to make a decision in March when in May the
1:29:11
whole um playing field may have changed
1:29:16
this is a also this is a 200 year 200 billion pound scheme just for going one
1:29:22
way there's no issue coming out of Cambridge either in the mornings in the or the evenings or coming into Cambridge in the
1:29:30
evenings it's purely from 7 30 till 9 30. so
1:29:35
um the paper says I believe 160 million but that was 20 20 figures we're now looking at 200 million plus so to fix
1:29:43
that um scheme for 200 million pounds that to my
1:29:50
mind makes it absolutely a ludicrous decision without looking at the further
1:29:55
information off an off-road off an on-road sorry and the East-West rail
1:30:02
so I would ask that members do consider that and I will be voting for the amendment thank you
1:30:09
thank you councilor Bowden
1:30:14
thank you chair for calling me to speak I think we all know that there is a potentially credible on-road option
1:30:22
which is which has been made available to us and is on the table I say potential because not a single one
1:30:28
of us counselors is actually in a technical position to make a judgment about all of the aspects of either the
1:30:36
on-road uh option or the off-road option we haven't got that technical qualification we depend upon officers
1:30:43
and experts to give us advice and it seems to me that unless and until
1:30:51
there is a comparative investigation into the relative merits and demerits of
1:30:58
those two alternative schemes it would be premature and irrational for us to
1:31:04
have a vote and make a decision now we can't delay forever no one's suggesting that what is being suggested
1:31:10
here is a relatively short delay of four months and during that time there will be a
1:31:17
very material factor which will come to light and that will be the determination
1:31:22
we were told in just two months time of the East-West rail route which will be
1:31:27
really important as a consideration as to the viability or otherwise of both
1:31:33
the on-road option and the off-road options will make a material difference so my suggestion uh uh uh chair is that
1:31:42
those members who may have been whipped by the labor party and by the liberal Democrat Party those members who may
1:31:48
have been whipped but who realized that it's sensible to make decisions based on the evidence available and that we will
1:31:54
have much better evidence available to us in just four months time that they do not uh vote against this
1:32:00
amendment and that they join with us in voting for this amendment and I think it's such an important issue chair mag
1:32:07
you've noticed now that I will be calling for a recorded vote of this amendment thank you
1:32:12
so I think you'll be relieved to find that I think all results all votes when we're using electronic voting system are
1:32:17
recorded so we don't think we need we we do need sorry chair whilst all votes are
1:32:22
recorded and published that you need a recorded vote if you want them actually in the minutes so could you remind me
1:32:28
that before we move to the vote this is on the amendment on the amendment remind me and we'll need some support but I'm
1:32:33
sure you'll find out okay thank you councilor Bowden next I have councilor Atkins
1:32:41
chair the off-road option and its environmental impacts are well understood I have walked much of the
1:32:48
route in my division and recently joined other members in visiting the orchard the on-road option however was abandoned
1:32:55
by the gcp after the 2018 board decision the options appraisal report at that
1:33:01
time compared to fully off-road route from Camborne to Cambridge with a variety of lower cost options none of
1:33:07
these are either of the complete options now being presented in any case the options report
1:33:14
had a variety of seemingly different criteria but many boiled down only to
1:33:19
the time from Camborne to the city center and back it also scored the on and off-road
1:33:25
options equally for environmental impact which I find hard to justify it scored
1:33:30
them very similarly for ongoing maintenance ditto and then had only one criteria for
1:33:36
scheme cost out of 36. it therefore dismissed the on-road option had I been
1:33:41
involved in the gcp at that time I would not have accepted this report or its conclusions
1:33:47
now the on-road route has since been developed by a coalition of local groups and Charities and I'm very grateful to
1:33:53
them for the significant work that this has entailed the facts surrounding it are contested however and therefore more
1:34:00
difficult for us as members particularly those of us who are not Highway Engineers to interpret
1:34:05
first there's no consensus as to what can be accomplished at the narrowest points in the on-road corridor without
1:34:11
disturbing sensitive signs but probably an inbound bus lane two traffic lanes
1:34:16
and a footpath with the active travel route separating and joining The combatant Greenway nearby to the South
1:34:22
seems a fair starting point which I think this amendment agrees with the comparative cost of such an on-road
1:34:29
option is not definitively established to the best of my knowledge the gcp ruled out any quick wins in this
1:34:35
stretch of highway in spite of recommendations to do to implement them by the independent audit and local
1:34:41
councilors so I doubt that the costs are trivial but they're probably still much less than the off-road option
1:34:48
the environmental savings for moving on road are obvious cotton Orchard is an area rich in
1:34:55
biodiversity and established mature trees as we have already heard and I would be devastated if it were damaged
1:35:01
or lost unnecessarily by the off-road route now the effectiveness of the on-road
1:35:07
option for the people of the county is also contested in the present day I would argue that
1:35:13
Superior access to the M11 is a reasonable counterbalance to the lack of outbound dedicated provision
1:35:18
particularly given the large number of current residents of Camborne Caldecott and Hardwick who work on the Cambridge
1:35:24
biomedical campus in the future assuming a reduction in private car use in Cambridge on which
1:35:30
either option ultimately depends whether the off-roads higher capacity but only as far as Grange Road design is superior
1:35:37
to the on-road's lower capacity but greater flexibility can reasonably be debated
1:35:43
the 2020 independent audit considered that the on-road proposals were not so
1:35:48
demonstrably Superior in the long run as to completely invalidate the off-road scheme but was also very clear in
1:35:56
refraining from adjudicating directly between the two options finally the gcp claimed in a recent
1:36:03
briefing note that what was feasible in the on-road corridor could not possibly meet the needs of the South
1:36:08
Cambridgeshire local plan the local plan describes where Housing Development is planned and what
1:36:14
infrastructure and policies are required to achieve it from what I can assess as
1:36:19
to the relative effectiveness of the two schemes that seems a bold claim it is
1:36:24
naturally contested by those in favor of the on-road route and it would ultimately be the decision of a national
1:36:30
planning inspector as to whether any proposed design fits the bill
1:36:36
I am very reluctant to see this much delayed scheme delayed again
1:36:41
there are residents in my division who will benefit from either option and many
1:36:46
more outside it likewise proponents of both options have
1:36:51
understandably become defensive about their preferred scheme and frustrated with disagreement which has made it
1:36:58
difficult for me to ascertain truth across the full range of issues but for the present I must conclude as
1:37:04
follows the original 2018 evaluation I find difficult to defend
1:37:11
subsequent work has not proved to me Beyond doubt that the off-road route can
1:37:17
justify the greater Financial cost and much greater environmental damage
1:37:23
yes I do acknowledge it would be a difficult challenge to build a first-class transport route past the
1:37:29
sensitive sites on maddingly Road therefore I think a short delay an updated
1:37:36
comparative evaluation and if possible a coming together of all parties in this debate would give a new
1:37:43
confidence and legitimacy to the greater Cambridge partnership would prepare us well for public inquiry
1:37:49
and would avoid any unnecessary harm to our natural landscape I therefore intend to support this amendment and ask
1:37:55
colleagues to do the same thank you thanks for Atkins I don't have anybody else registered to speak and so there's
1:38:01
no further country oh Jeff councilor Steve
1:38:07
yeah thank you chairman uh it's not a speech I just like to ask a question if
1:38:12
I might of the proposals of the amendment um you've made great play on the fact
1:38:18
that the EWR is in motion and then it's coming down
1:38:25
the line uh hasn't been decided yet but can I ask given the history of hs2
1:38:32
and possible uncertainties of the actually the construction of the line
1:38:39
anyway even if it is approved when do they think that the EWR will become
1:38:45
operational pretty good
1:38:50
counselor counts chairman I believe under a point of order I'm allowed to clarify a statement that
1:38:58
I made earlier on in my speech that may have been misunderstood yes of course thank you thank you chair so
1:39:05
um so I mentioned the East West rail and the fact so just to just to be clear
1:39:13
where we are on the east west rail the budget announced that it is going ahead
1:39:21
and the route will be announced in May and that was a statement in the budget
1:39:27
as part of the amendment We'd have to look at what the impact of that would be because it may not be Campbell it may be
1:39:33
somewhere else but in the amendment it asks for clarification it would take into account the predicted time scale if
1:39:40
any is indicated of that impact but by July not not in you know this is this is
1:39:46
set in stone as much as Government working set in stone by July we will know whether the East-West
1:39:52
rail whether it's going there or not and whether it would have any impact and in
1:39:57
addition to that I'd have put in the amendment chair that if there's anything missing from
1:40:04
the list of things that need to be asked so for example the date of the East-West
1:40:09
rail or we heard from a councilor early on about all the other things are missing I think I think
1:40:15
I I I accept your point and I think you've made it so thank you for that the bit we're in the amendment it says that
1:40:21
the chief executive in consultation with the leader of the council and Deputy leader can add
1:40:27
add any comparisons in thank you very much thank you thank you Council account I don't have a counselor lessinger
1:40:34
you sure so I'm going to move to council machine then to sum up on the amendment
1:40:41
thank you thank you chair um so as it turns out we signed the city
1:40:48
deal we agreed to the growth the homes and the jobs we agreed
1:40:53
so the infrastructure that would be required we got the money for it but when it comes to building it nothing to
1:40:59
do with us it's not our fault I'll take that point that's fine similarly I am being very bureaucratic and if kids
1:41:05
can't get to school sit in three hour traffic and end up at Royal Park work with asthma if that's bureaucracy to you
1:41:11
then I don't think we live in the same Universe um I did Begin by noting that we would
1:41:18
actually get into the detail of this document which has and what you have been lied to today there's been quite a
1:41:24
lot of being lied to today this on-road option has never been has never been professionally nonsense machine could
1:41:31
you moderate your language I apologize there's
1:41:36
this particular on-road option has not been professionally appraised nonsense it has we have had an audit that was
1:41:45
published in 21. on page 58 the efficacy of an on-road service to
1:41:51
serve new developments at cambon and born Airfield would not be aligned with the assumptions and constraints at least
1:41:57
not in the longer term it was also considered again in some detail the issues of other
1:42:02
infrastructure development plans potentially being considered in the area this being East-West Rail and the girl
1:42:08
from roundabout or did page 64 the C2C scheme Remains the only means of increasing capacity on
1:42:15
the a1303 a428 corridor and addressing the public transport travel needs of the
1:42:21
growing population East West rail does not provide an alternative to travel along the corridor West Cambridge and
1:42:27
the City Center the two schemes serve different travel markets and should be planned as complementary services
1:42:34
the housing developments in Camborne Western Boone Airfield require the C2C project to be opened by 25 otherwise
1:42:40
plant growth will be put at risk on page 69 again I will lend this to people if
1:42:46
they want to read it later The gerton Interchange option is an ambitious and expensive option and would take longer
1:42:52
to deliver as it is reliant on highways England committing to upgrade the junction which they have not
1:42:59
so we have professionally appraised this route it's been taken to Absolute pieces
1:43:04
all this work has been done further review further is built into the
1:43:09
next stage of the process by the public inquiry that would follow if the application was submitted
1:43:16
the scheme has already been delayed to carry out this audit which I have just cited from and follows earlier delays
1:43:23
from the previous mayor when he considered alternative alignments and could find none that worked
1:43:28
and once again all alternatives that are being put on the table consider
1:43:33
the traffic levels now and not after the homes have been built to the substance of the amendment it
1:43:40
asks for a complexity of analysis many of which are a repetition of what the independent audit already did
1:43:47
some of which are incredibly difficult and complicated and carry a necessary component of speculation during the time
1:43:53
and traffic analysis which we all know cannot be determined scientifically with certainty and some of which value for
1:44:00
money judgments and officers best judgment and compliance are just plain vague
1:44:05
if we can't make a decision on the data we've got on the table somebody's best judgment is not going to cut it
1:44:12
officers have indeed confirmed that we have neither the capacity nor the expertise in-house
1:44:18
not talking about County Council and not at the combined authority to carry out the required work that the amendment
1:44:24
asks for in three months which would therefore lead to the necessity to procure external Services given the time
1:44:31
taken during the three previous reviews 19 20 21 which all took nine months to
1:44:37
commission and carry out we would not be able to bring anything meaningful back before a year with such a delay we will
1:44:44
be putting the scheme delivery and the potential further government investment in the city deal at risk
1:44:49
now I know that there are members in the opposition who want the scheme to go ahead whose residents are desperate for
1:44:56
the scheme to go ahead and if they bought this argument that you can do all this work and bring it
1:45:03
back in three months and everything will be lovely I am actually very disappointed very disappointed also I have a bridge
1:45:10
to send in thank you thank you so uh councilor Bowman's asked
1:45:16
for a recorded vote we need 14 Hands for recorded vote I think that's easily 14.
1:45:22
thank you very much oh Mrs Rowe could you please open the
1:45:29
voting on the amendment members in favor of the amendment please
1:45:36
press the button underneath the word yes members against the amendment please
1:45:42
press the button underneath the word no members wishing to abstain please press
1:45:47
the button underneath the word abstain
1:46:16
so that gives you the difference yeah okay
1:46:25
chair I'm now closing the vote the result of the vote is 25 votes in
1:46:31
favor 30 against no abstentions the amendment is therefore lost
1:46:38
thank you so we now move on to the debate on the substantive motion which is as written in your papers
1:46:45
would anybody like to say yeah
1:46:50
we're going to be like to contribute to the base tour I don't see any hands Council bradnam please thank you
1:47:04
thank you members um since Camborne was first planned in 2004
1:47:13
it has needed a reliable public transport route to Cambridge we've heard from councilor muscini
1:47:20
earlier on uh the support which Campbell Village college has put towards this
1:47:25
project we know that a number of Alternatives have been considered and
1:47:31
audited but have other the Alternatives have not been found viable
1:47:37
the important thing here is not to leave the 11 000 residents of Camborne the
1:47:43
future residents of West Camborne and the residents of Bourne Airfield in the
1:47:48
future reliant on cars to get into Cambridge when they could have a reliable dedicated public transport link
1:47:56
the point of that has been made very clearly by councilor Hawthorne
1:48:02
I attended a four-hour site visit two weeks ago I can't pretend to have walked the route as frequently as others
1:48:09
I did view all of the critical points on the route and I want to thank the residents of
1:48:15
koten and the others who have sent their numerous emails which have helped us all
1:48:21
to understand the passion with which you view this matter I also wanted to give you the case of a
1:48:27
friend of mine who some years ago was invited by a friend who lives in Camborne to just go to dinner with her
1:48:34
the public transport was so poor that she ended up having to stay the night because there was no bus back
1:48:41
and this is just the simple this is the simple case for people at Camborne there
1:48:47
just isn't good enough public transport for them and we know that students are having to make decisions about whether
1:48:54
we'd like to go to study on the basis of where they can get rather than what they
1:48:59
actually want to do and I think this is such a fundamental importance to the communities that have been built in
1:49:06
Camborne thank you very much thank you councilor McDonald please
1:49:14
thank you chair so when we look at the decision overall
1:49:19
um uh for coton and the busway and when I look at it as a member a member in South Cambridgeshire it decisions
1:49:26
essentially boils down to a trade-off between two objectives as has already been mentioned effective
1:49:33
and efficient public transport and a trade-off between that and landscape and nature
1:49:38
as somebody with an agricultural background as I do it always pains me to
1:49:43
see possible habitat destruction that could happen I was very pleased to join Cambridge
1:49:49
past present and future call a few weeks ago who do excellent work in South Cambridgeshire
1:49:54
um the County Council as many will know but maybe some of the residents don't know we manage 33 000 Acres of farmland
1:50:02
and so the County Council I I believe does have an understanding of habitat
1:50:07
potential habitat destruction and what we can do to mitigate that I'm always told by my residents please
1:50:14
no development without proper infrastructure then when infrastructure comes along whether it be CTC whether it be
1:50:21
East-West rail whether it be guided bus communities often say not here please
1:50:28
for us to accept the code and Community arguments and the Cambridge past present and future we have to really assume that
1:50:35
everything comes about we have to assume that an on-road capacity delivers transport for all the
1:50:41
homes in Camborne Campbell and Western on the Airfield we have to believe that the travel will not return to pre-covered levels we have
1:50:48
to believe that East-West rail will deliver enough capacity for the local plan within the plan period
1:50:54
best case is a station in Camborne maybe 2035 2040 I don't know
1:51:00
we have to believe that the planning inspector to accept an on-road solution for the 7 000 dwellings and possibly up
1:51:06
to 20 000 people is is a sustainable solution and finally we have to believe
1:51:12
that all that happens within the planned period for the local plan in South Cambridgeshire I asked Cambridge past
1:51:19
present in future what will be the habitat destruction through East-West rail of course it's just like the unfair
1:51:25
question they don't know that neither do I neither does anybody here until we know what the root alignment is
1:51:32
but it could be potentially hundred times more impactful than cotton Willie Swiss rail take out 10 Orchards 20
1:51:39
Orchards 30 Orchards nobody here knows and this is something we have to think
1:51:44
about so how important is Colton and please bear with me as an agriculturalist in
1:51:50
thinking about Orchards Colton as we know planted in 1922 and supplied the
1:51:55
wholesale markets in London South Cambridgeshire is full of a land where
1:52:01
Orchards were established and thrived especially during the Chipper's time in
1:52:06
my own area around Shepherd we have the old doctor of Manor development which is
1:52:11
named after the orchard that was there before so coton really is a valuable Orchard
1:52:16
but unfortunately we have seen if if this emotion is accepted a widespread
1:52:22
loss of orchards it it doesn't make that potential loss right but it puts it in perspective in
1:52:28
what's happened in South Cambridgeshire generally philosophically I have a real issue on
1:52:34
habitat destruction but I also have philosophically a real issue about preventing especially
1:52:41
youngsters in the Camborne area and their new developments from getting to their chosen site of Education
1:52:49
I was astonished to receive a letter from the Council of protection of rural England which didn't even mention
1:52:56
Mattingly wood a site of special scientific interest which is being protected
1:53:01
and regarding the American cemetery I've always been surprised how close the current road is about a hundred meters
1:53:09
from the commemorative wall for the soldiers the sailors and Airmen an on-road scheme I believe would
1:53:16
increase the traffic whereas the busway May mitigate some of it and take some of
1:53:22
that traffic movement maybe two to three hundred meters away from the the
1:53:27
cemetery so chair I totally understand Colton's Community concerns however I have to
1:53:35
think also about the Cambridge residents and the local plan and especially those youngsters getting to education and work
1:53:42
and accordingly for me I will support the motion for the transfer transport
1:53:48
and works act thank you thank you next up is councilor slatter please
1:53:54
thank you Jeff as many of you know I was a city councilor for trumpington for 13
1:54:00
years at the turn of the century and now I'm proud to be the county councilor
1:54:05
so a little bit of relevant trumpington past present and future
1:54:11
20 years ago in 2003 the lib Dem city council was painfully aware of the
1:54:17
shortage of affordable housing in Cambridge we had many more jobs than houses then and we were losing thousands
1:54:24
of council homes for rent with the right to buy our adult children could not afford to
1:54:30
live in Cambridge and growing families had to move out our city council pursued a difficult or
1:54:37
controversial path to the right to the 2006 local plan we took substantial amounts of land out
1:54:43
of our Green Belt to build the housing we needed those homes and the new public parks one
1:54:50
managed successfully by the wildlife trust in trumpington are nearly finished 17 years later
1:54:57
what we couldn't secure was a decent local public transport but that's another story for this afternoon
1:55:03
meanwhile the new development of Camborne approved in 1996 was being
1:55:09
built and the children of many trumpington families were able to go out and live out there the trouble was the
1:55:16
bus service was poor and it was difficult for those families difficult to get to College as teachers and pupils
1:55:24
to hospitals as patient and staff and visitors to the universities as cleaners
1:55:30
and lecturers to shops as customers and staff to stay connected with one another
1:55:37
for two generations now the people of Camborne have been promised they will get a better bus service but it has got
1:55:44
worse councilors who went on the site visit in preparation for this decision and those
1:55:50
were familiar with Camborne anyway will be well aware of the problems suffered by residents as a result this is a
1:55:57
difficult decision to make we have looked at the presentations we have gone on the site visits we have
1:56:04
read the emails we are weighing up the costs and the benefits and we must decide
1:56:10
I for one will continue to take an active interest in the details of whatever progresses I should perhaps
1:56:17
mention that I am a member of Cambridge past present and future when I joined it
1:56:22
was called the Cambridge preservation Society I considered the rebranding to be an
1:56:29
improvement and certainly I was in tune with it we must appreciate the past act
1:56:36
in the present and take responsibility for the future
1:56:43
thank you councilor Atkins please
1:56:48
chair over the last eight years communication between the gcp elected
1:56:54
members and local residents have at various times not reached the standards we would hope or expect in this matter
1:57:01
there are many residents who feel that their concerns have been disregarded and their suggestions discounted much of
1:57:07
this crystallized around the 2018 consultation residents were asked to give their preferences between an
1:57:13
off-road route an on-road route and an on-road tidal route between Hardwick and Cambridge
1:57:18
the title option was not I believe ever seen as credible by the gcp but was included half-heartedly in response to
1:57:25
local demands and dismissed shortly after the remaining on-road option was dismissed by the board in 2018 and again
1:57:31
by us effectively some 10 minutes ago the two-thirds of local residents a
1:57:37
clear majority who selected one of these on-road options as their preference have some right I think to feel ignored
1:57:44
the gcp and elected members have since struggled to regain Trust residents were
1:57:49
unconvinced for example by future projections of congestion on medically Road when this was revealed as based on
1:57:55
very old data and that although recent traffic surveys across the city had been completed none had been done on
1:58:01
Mattingly Road itself this made it very difficult to square descriptions of this current state of
1:58:07
play with residents direct experience let alone build a convincing picture of the future as we are attempting to do
1:58:14
now a significant Improvement was made to the proposed scheme against the Run of play so to speak when the independent
1:58:21
audit combined with the defeat of Mayor Palmer released the scheme from compliance with the cam Metro
1:58:26
specifications and after several further years of negotiation I'm pleased to report this has resulted in a creative
1:58:33
sensible and widely supported on-road solution through Hardwick Village saving
1:58:38
many trees and many pounds I'm therefore very grateful to councilor Gough among others for initiating the independent
1:58:45
audit and for the gcp solution in response it's only a shame that the same level of
1:58:50
creativity and openness has not been applied to the subsequent section of the scheme from long road to the city
1:58:56
we have all seen the resulting outpouring of emotion and reason that
1:59:01
the threatened damage from the off-road route has elicited and I want to acknowledge publicly the powerful impact
1:59:07
of the letters that we have received from residents I am bitterly disappointed that
1:59:13
councilor Council amendment was not taken up by the council although creating a delay to the scheme it would
1:59:18
have been a delay with purpose and value as I argued earlier the recommendations as they remain are
1:59:25
unpalatable should the transport Works act or did not pass however the scheme will be left
1:59:31
in a limbo it's clear that the gcp are determined that the on-road option does not meet the need of the local plan
1:59:37
briefly explain further if such needs are not met a huge impetus for and
1:59:42
financial gains from property development cannot be controlled and channeled in a sustainable manner across
1:59:49
the district that determination is clearly shared by the leader of the council by the deputy
1:59:55
leader in gcp chair and indeed a majority of members against such opposition rejecting the
2:00:02
recommendations now will not I think resuscitate the on-road option we have already heard from the deputy
2:00:09
leader that the gcp won't touch the on-road route without a clear instruction to do so
2:00:14
so instead we will simply face the same Choice again at a future council meeting until by simple lack of illness there
2:00:21
are enough members in the chamber to approve it such a delay without the force of the
2:00:26
amendment behind it would serve little purpose it can't be justified to the residents of Camborne Caldecott Hardwick
2:00:32
and coton who wish to use and benefit from the scheme as soon as possible this is not a project where delay until it
2:00:39
disappears Allah Yes Minister is an appropriate response since the consequences of not delivering any
2:00:45
scheme would be catastrophic for protecting the character of the many fine villages in South Cambridgeshire
2:00:50
from the demands of new housing and for residents to sustainably access work and schools
2:00:56
the only way that I can see now for the competing claims to be resolved is through the public inquiry which is the
2:01:02
next stage of the process this will now regrettably be a messy and costly affair
2:01:08
although the vote on the amendment was lost what has been achieved today is to demonstrate that narrow political
2:01:15
support for the scheme rests heavily on a small set of assertions chiefly that there is no on-road route
2:01:22
that meets the requirement of a local plan and more broadly that a very expensive
2:01:27
and destructive all singing all start dancing design is indeed truly necessary
2:01:34
for the current and future needs of Cambridgeshire if the public inquiry finds any weakness
2:01:40
in these assertions the matter must be returned afresh to the County Council for further debate
2:01:45
on that basis I will reluctantly support the progress of the scheme to public inquiry thank you thank you councilor
2:01:51
Gough please thank you chair um the C2C project is a keystone within
2:01:59
the sustainable development of the west of Cambridge it is an area that as we've heard has had significant growth in
2:02:05
housing without parallel development of transport options to connect those
2:02:11
residents to economic educational recreational opportunities this project was explicitly identified
2:02:17
as an issue and spatial strategy contained within the 2018 SCD South cams
2:02:23
District local plan and led to consequent planning restrictions around development of Bourne Airfield it remains a critical
2:02:30
issue today it is a requirement to underpin the plant growth and employment and housing
2:02:36
to the west of Cambridge but it's also desperately needed for the current residents who want
2:02:43
better access to economic and educational opportunities of Cambridge right now they deserve better than they've got
2:02:50
and they deserve a whole lot better we can't celebrate our excellent further
2:02:55
education institutions and research industry with all the job opportunities that brings in Cambridge
2:03:01
and at the same time effectively permit huge barriers being placed in the way of students and employees from Camborne and
2:03:09
similar Villages being able to access them that is just not fair
2:03:14
there are as we've heard a number of important issues that have been raised
2:03:20
in relation to the scheme these will be considered in the planning
2:03:26
inquiry and they remain of obvious concern
2:03:32
but they will not just simply go away with an alternate routing option would still be faced with significant
2:03:38
environmental impact issues indeed an ancient Woodland that stagnated as a triple SI proximity to
2:03:45
the American cemetery and so on there are issues
2:03:50
the other point I just want to quickly comment on is East-West rail again the independent audit is really
2:03:57
clear in seeing East-West Rail and sea to C as complements not as substitutes the
2:04:04
report says East westwell does not provide an alternate to travel along the west along the corridor to West
2:04:09
Cambridge and the city center the two schemes are very different travel markets and should be planned as
2:04:15
complementary services it is really really important that the
2:04:21
schemes if they go ahead connect that is how a network develops and it is
2:04:27
when you get a network of Transport opportunities that we really are well on our way to solving the challenge of
2:04:34
sustainable transport so what is the case to proceed
2:04:39
no one wants to impinge on the great on the green belt but past and developing local plans have
2:04:45
resulted and will result in housing being built in locations such
2:04:51
as Camborne and North Stowe if we buy into that spatial strategy and
2:04:56
encourage people to move to Bourne Camborne water beach new town and
2:05:01
northstone we have to provide the transport links for people to get to work in education easily and effectively
2:05:09
not just now with current levels jobs and population movement but with the
2:05:15
capacity to deal with the growth so I hope that in making this decision
2:05:21
we all give real thought to the thousands of people currently living in Campbell
2:05:27
and those who will come to live in born and future developments in West Camborne
2:05:33
it is right that we consider their interests in welfare in making this decision
2:05:39
however and while it may not appear so I understand to many people I would also
2:05:45
say that this decision is important as well to protect the interests of
2:05:50
residents in villages immediately around Cambridge because those residents have been
2:05:56
equally clear about the desire to protect the green pulp from Housing Development
2:06:02
and C to C is one of the projects it's absolutely critical to deliver the infrastructure
2:06:09
to support the spatial strategy to ensure that that protection of the green belt is sustainable in the long term
2:06:18
and I will be therefore voting to proceed to submit the TWA
2:06:24
thank you Council shayar thank you chair
2:06:31
there is a country that had 20 percent of its land covered in just one of its
2:06:37
ecosystems rainforest but now only one percent Remains the
2:06:43
forests have been destroyed banned and cleared for agriculture for grazing animals or crops
2:06:51
and for monoculture plantations this is not a bad oil palm in Indonesia
2:06:58
I'm talking about this country the United Kingdom the remaining temperate rainforest is
2:07:05
still under pressure for grazing and for clearance but these and other UK native ecosystems
2:07:14
existing only as refugia fragments are finally being recognized for the amazing
2:07:21
Treasures they are rich and diversity and raw material or
2:07:27
re-wilding if anyone has seen the long table in Ely cathedral made from a single bog Oak you
2:07:37
will have seen how tall forests were in this part of the country that is what an English Oak was meant to
2:07:45
be so I think it is sad when people see Roe
2:07:50
on row of monoculture clones as natural
2:07:56
don't get me wrong I love apple trees my grandfather taught me how to graft as a child
2:08:02
he had hundreds of varieties grafted from genetically unique seedlings
2:08:08
whenever he spotted a tree on the roadside we would have to stop and take a cutting
2:08:14
from their origin in Kazakhstan people have spread apples all over the world
2:08:23
though fruit trees don't live long I would like to see more orchards in the green belt with diverse species and
2:08:31
fruiting times pip and stone fruits accessible to all
2:08:36
tough varieties that wouldn't need to be sprayed or too much upkeep work
2:08:43
but we also need real wild native ecosystems
2:08:50
often the green belt is more a brown belt plowed land hemorrhaging topsoil
2:08:56
into the streams and inaccessible to a population hungry or nature at home in
2:09:03
this country the gcp has done years of work to find
2:09:10
the best route I have seen the data the justification as we go back and forth arguing one
2:09:17
scheme and back to the last one again the growth in population as required by
2:09:24
a government continues as does the growth in numbers of cars
2:09:29
and will continue even if we lose the money to build decent green
2:09:34
infrastructure we will then be trapped in transport
2:09:40
chaos and one step closer to a burning planet
2:09:45
it is time to grasp the nettle and do what we know is right
2:09:51
future Generations will thank us for it thank you Chad thank you Council Camp please
2:10:00
thank you chair um
2:10:06
yes so where we are at the moment a lot of people have stood up and thanked all
2:10:13
the people that have written in thank the codes and residents who have come here today and said their piece thank
2:10:18
the public question makers and I'm going to take a slightly different attack I'm
2:10:25
going to apologize to you all I'm sorry we couldn't do well enough I'm bitterly disappointed that the what
2:10:33
was a genuine attempt to lead to good decision in May in July wasn't taken in the way it was intended
2:10:40
to end up with this Council being able to get a fair choice between the two schemes so I apologize to you for not
2:10:47
being good enough um we've gone past that point now to go to
2:10:52
public inquiry and transport and works act order I I can't support what's in front of us
2:10:59
because I don't know the validity the validity of the questions the answers the questions that I was trying to ask
2:11:06
your Amendment there is no way no way that I can support a scheme with
2:11:12
a BCR of 0.43 going in front of a transport work act
2:11:17
that means for every one pound of taxpayers money that's been raised in
2:11:23
this country 43 Pence comes back not the one pound Plus 43. 57 Pence is wasted
2:11:32
and 43 Pence remains that is what we're being asked to vote for today
2:11:38
but the gcp people say well that doesn't matter because we're going to build a lot that allow a lot of houses to be
2:11:44
built businesses to come in so we'll get an uplifting value but actually the government has
2:11:50
announced that the East West foul scheme will be going forward and they will use a BCR and if that's at Camborne as well
2:11:57
they will be using those figures for their scheme we can't do double counting
2:12:02
you can't count the same things twice and I'm not one for wasting taxpayers money but that's
2:12:10
what's in front of us today but the gcp doesn't seem to mind because
2:12:16
even though this will be north of 220 million and we don't know what the optimism bias is
2:12:22
okay because they're going to get 30 from their money which was hard bought
2:12:27
for and the rest of the money will come from developments well I've got news for them first of all
2:12:35
that money does come at a cost when you go to those developers and try and get
2:12:40
that 119 million pounds out their pockets which they readily agreed to
2:12:45
when they were getting the planning permission we will see a whole batch of viability statements
2:12:51
and when you ask the money for the C2C they'll say yeah well you'll have to build the school or you'll build the
2:12:57
doctor's surgery or you'll build the green Parks or you'll build something else or you'll lose out on your
2:13:02
affordable housing because there won't be enough money in those developments in the current climate but this C2C scheme at 220
2:13:10
million pounds plus all the other things that required
2:13:16
I don't understand how the debate was allowed to move forward today within my
2:13:21
opinion the conflicts of interest from the council Machinery we asked about predetermination but I'm on another
2:13:29
Council or I'm on a cabinet and I can't see on the earth sit on the overview and scrutiny committee because I would be
2:13:36
scrutinizing my own decisions but this council is allowed today
2:13:41
cancel the machine it was brought this forward as our member on the gcp a decision maker not a back bencher a
2:13:48
decision maker to fully take part in this debate and vote on this debate today
2:13:54
and this council is effectively scrutinizing that work I don't understand that's how how that's
2:14:00
happened but it's on record and when the transport and works act order publicly
2:14:05
inquiry comes like that will deal with that the other thing I don't understand is
2:14:11
actually the scheme the audit said it made sense when James Palmer's network was there because it actually delivered
2:14:18
further than Grange Road but not to service Adam Brooks and not
2:14:24
to service the Cambridge Science Park effectively with a 220 million pound
2:14:31
guided busway bayels the residents of Camborne and it
2:14:36
fails the residents of that area the three biggest Employers in that employment sites in that area will be
2:14:42
West Cambridge West which is served Cambridge science part which is not Serb
2:14:48
and Adam Brooks which is not served they are all worse off using the scheme than
2:14:54
just getting in your car and driving I think that the transport and works act order will look at that closely as well
2:15:00
and ask what were you trying to solve and if it was congestion it fails on the
2:15:06
fact that that only occurs in manly Road area you can't your time's up sorry about that thank you yeah thank you
2:15:13
thank you
2:15:20
thank you chair um yes um
2:15:27
in our introduction the deputy leader referred to decisions previously made but in the past by a conservative
2:15:33
Administration I find it a bit Rich that she's not taken responsibility for her own
2:15:39
decisions and trying to divert those towards the conservatives from eight years ago
2:15:45
I make comments on issues before this Council in an honest way and I would remind the deputy leader
2:15:50
that there are people who have a different opinion to her that is called democracy
2:15:56
this decision is kicking the village of Colton in the teeth there is a viable alternative to the
2:16:03
proposed scheme but that is being ignored without proper investigation
2:16:08
I know Camborne well having lived a few miles away from it for many years
2:16:13
and seeing it Grow from Open Fields to what it is now I remember those fields openly I did my weekly shop there
2:16:21
and used to have an enjoyable Saturday lunch there a couple of times a month
2:16:27
um after the strain of the week it needs better public transport
2:16:32
and I believe that it is deliverable by an on-road scheme certainly if one takes into account the cost
2:16:40
we have the arrogance of the gcp and some members of this Council in pushing ahead with this game through coach and
2:16:46
Orchard I feel that the green credentials of some members will be tarnished by the
2:16:51
decision on this matter two weeks ago we made a decision in my
2:16:57
opinion at agent I was in transport without the necessary data and I believe
2:17:02
what we are doing the same today I cannot support this recommendation
2:17:08
thank you councilor Howard please and very briefly chair
2:17:13
um my colleague councilor Miss Cheney doesn't need anyone to defend her but having listened to the various
2:17:19
opposition criticisms about her role and uh the
2:17:24
function of the gcp and listening carefully to the the monitoring officer as well I do feel moved to put a couple
2:17:30
of things on record one is Council has Genie is not pursuing some separate
2:17:35
interest in the greater Cambridge partnership she represents this County Council in the greater Cambridge
2:17:42
partnership and she is working as do all the participants between the county and
2:17:48
the district councils in the common interest of finding solutions that are the best for our County
2:17:54
and that has to be something that should be commended and it's about representing
2:18:00
effectively us as a County Council and taking what we all acknowledge are complex and difficult decisions
2:18:07
and actually on the point of scrutiny I think Council account was right this council meeting is taking a view it's
2:18:15
listening to all of the arguments is to liberating and there will be final votes and of course um some will be
2:18:22
disappointed whichever way the votes go but to suggest that scrutiny doesn't
2:18:27
exist we're a committee based system in our cabinet system has come to account well understands chair so yeah point of
2:18:36
order cast account that was not what I said and that cannot
2:18:42
be misinterpreted that way I never said that scrutiny didn't work through a committee system and the only
2:18:48
reference I made to the cabinet system was the fact that I'm on the cabinet at another Council and therefore I cannot
2:18:56
scrutinize Myself by being on the overview and scrutiny committee it is a deliberate conflagration of what
2:19:04
I said by councilor Howard thank you for that clarification councilor how it yes I certainly didn't mean any personal uh
2:19:11
disservice to cancel account but I make the points for the public who have listened to this debate that there is
2:19:19
full scrutiny of this we will end up with a democratic vote whichever way it
2:19:24
goes and this is just the latest step of the process at each stage of which the
2:19:31
colleagues in the gcp and our sales assistant County Council deliberate carefully on the basis of all of the
2:19:37
evidence before us and I think that's important to put on record in the light of the various points that have been
2:19:43
made about predetermination thank you thank you would no one else which to
2:19:48
speak I'm going to move to Canada councilor Bowden if you're going to register speaker could you please let us
2:19:54
know now rather than leave me to the last minute thank you guys thank you very much indeed uh chair for calling me
2:19:59
and one of the reasons for leaving it to the end was so that I wouldn't need to remind you I would ask for a recorded
2:20:04
vote to take place on this full uh on the substantive motion and the reason is
2:20:09
this is a massively important vote that we're about to take now
2:20:15
one positive thing about the uh process that we've had uh leading up to today
2:20:20
has been the amount of Engagement that has been from individuals and local organizations and I can say that in the
2:20:28
eight years that I've been a member of this County Council I have never received as many individual non-copied
2:20:35
uh responses and comments from individuals as I have on this particular debate and I have taken pleasure in
2:20:43
responding to each and every email that I've received many of which I know have been copied in the original emails to
2:20:49
all the members of this Council and I've taken great pleasure in responding to them all and I've been pleased to get some responses back some by phone some
2:20:56
by email from individuals and I think that's a very helpful part of the democratic process however it has
2:21:03
revealed some real disappointment on the part of our residents who basically who
2:21:10
are fundamentally the people who have the Democratic rights in this organization and two comments which have been made
2:21:17
which I'd like to to repeat the first which was copied into everyone was from one resident who said that he'd say that
2:21:24
he doesn't have faith in the Democratic process anymore as residents we were asked to vote for councilors we cast our
2:21:31
vote to a great extent based on their views with respect to the busway it seems they have changed their mind why I
2:21:38
can only speculate that factors are at play that are not laid open to the General Public and it is a very serious matter chair
2:21:46
when people feel that the Democratic trusts that they have put in councilors
2:21:51
because of things that they said when they stood for election then count for nothing when those same counselors come
2:21:57
to vote on that same issue at a council meeting had another Resident who in a verbal
2:22:04
conversation uh she said just me why is it that liberal Democrat and labor
2:22:09
councilors are determined to destroy Orchard against all the evidence you'll
2:22:15
be pleased to chair to know I did defend labor and liberal Democratic councilors
2:22:20
and said it's not true that they're all against Origins it's not true that they're doing it deliberately there have
2:22:26
been many of them really don't actually approve of this but they're being forced to do it by their party political
2:22:31
leadership and I would ask all members to reach into their hearts to reach into their
2:22:37
souls and to vote according to what is really required rather than what they're being told to vote
2:22:43
so I do uh uh ask uh just to remind you for a recorded vote so that it can be on
2:22:49
the public record when it comes to the next election uh just how people voted maybe in comparison to the way in which
2:22:56
they promised that they would vote when uh they stood for election I saw one counselor I'm not going to name that
2:23:02
person uh chair one counselor who said rather uh smugly or on another very
2:23:07
serious local issue oh it doesn't matter not up for election for another two years by that time Della forgotten all about it that's a Global attitude for
2:23:14
anyone to have towards local democracy thank you and detail thank you and I've noted your requests
2:23:21
for recording yeah sorry another point of view councilor goldsack yeah and this
2:23:26
is again this is across the floor uh we have two members of our group that have even arrived due the during the debate I
2:23:33
also know uh members of the uh of the ruling administration had members arrived during the break I would like a
2:23:40
guidance on whether they are allowed to vote on this or not the second point I would like to add is uh with due respect
2:23:47
to her and a a ill health I know it's councilor Taylor was in the debate for the last one but didn't vote was in the
2:23:53
debate for this one and therefore well has she still got the right to vote or not I just would like that cleared so
2:23:58
that there's unequivocal and I'm asking this both the people in the room and also the many visitors we've got here
2:24:03
today because they need to know uh go to the monitor office on that one please I would just say that um if
2:24:09
um members are here and they're entitled to vote if they're physically present they can vote
2:24:15
so you're saying that they can vote even if they like just walked in the room now and took their seat and didn't hear the
2:24:20
debate they're still entitled to vote they are the present okay thank you that's clear thank you
2:24:28
right right with that I'm going to move to councilman singer as a second of the motion a very long time ago
2:24:34
okay thank you very much the proposal for this public transport
2:24:41
route is something which I have been deeply involved in for the past eight years the route enters Cambridge in my ward
2:24:48
and it has been incredibly controversial for all of those eight years I vividly remember attending one of the
2:24:54
first gcp meetings where councilor Ian Bates told the residents he had ruled out the northern route entering
2:25:00
Cambridge to the north of the current M11 bridge on the basis of the view from the American cemetery and I was Furious
2:25:07
eight years on and numerous investigations and independent audits later the route has been significantly
2:25:14
improved the park and ride has been moved to Scotland Farm a hugely important change
2:25:19
meaning coaching will no longer be dominated by a car park at the top of the hill the route along Saint Nate's Road in
2:25:26
Hardwick has been revised from the proposals brought forward by James Palmer so that trees screening houses
2:25:31
from the a428 will now remain the route to the east of the M11 has
2:25:37
been redesigned to protect the maximum amount of the West fields and has responded to the concerns of residents
2:25:42
and cyclists so that Adams Road will no longer be affected of course I wish it were possible to
2:25:49
build a high quality public transport route without chopping down a single tree but it is not possible
2:25:55
the on-road route has been thoroughly examined over many years and would itself have a significant impact on
2:26:01
trees residents of Camborne have waited many years for the long promised public
2:26:06
transport option for traveling to Cambridge the UN report yesterday emphasized yet
2:26:12
again just how urgent it is that we take steps to decarbonize our economy and
2:26:17
high quality public transport is a critical part of decarbonizing Transport in our area
2:26:24
if this proposal is passed today I give my personal commitment to do everything in my power to ensure firstly that the
2:26:30
minimum damage is done to the coach and Orchard but also and equally importantly that the promises made as part of this
2:26:37
proposal to ensure biodiversity net gain as a result of this route is followed
2:26:43
moving to a net zero economy cannot be done without changing the way we travel this Campbell to Cambridge public
2:26:50
transport route has been tested over many years against alternative options the residents of Camborne were promised
2:26:57
a high quality public transport route many years ago I believe passionately that we need to provide attractive and
2:27:03
fast alternatives to travel by private car not only to tackle climate change but also to give those who do not have
2:27:10
access to a car or cannot drive the chance to benefit from the educational and employment opportunities of our
2:27:16
wider area so I ask you to support this proposal thank you thank you and finally councilor machini
2:27:23
to sum up thank you thank you chair and thank you very much everybody for all your contributions I know this is
2:27:31
one of the if not the most important debate we've had in this chamber certainly it's an extremely important
2:27:37
decision and I would like to apologize perhaps sort of being a little bit heated in an earlier speech but it's a
2:27:43
sign of just how seriously I and everybody else in this room takes this and just how intolerant I am in a debate
2:27:50
as important as this or falsehoods being uttered in my presence some of them no
2:27:56
one has ever directly compared the overall route to the proposed of root false the off-road route would result in
2:28:02
the removal of a thousand trees Falls the on-road route would not result in the removal of any trees walls the
2:28:10
on-road route would not result in an impingement upon the American cemetery or maddingly wood polsk the currently
2:28:17
proposed King will cost more than 200 million poles the gcp have never
2:28:22
consulted on on-road options or have otherwise ignored consultation results false
2:28:28
we have address points in this debate points that are very important in relation to the environmental impact of
2:28:34
the scheme the impact on Cotton Orchard and on trees all along the route and on
2:28:39
pollutant Emissions on the a428 we have discussed the relationship between C2C and EWR and the potential of upgrades to
2:28:47
The girton Interchange there is I'm afraid no easy solution the address is
2:28:53
the need for sustainable public transport infrastructure without affecting the landscape in ways that are
2:28:59
sometimes really difficult to accept students in Camborne are already barred
2:29:04
from access to post 16 educational opportunities in Cambridge unless they have a car of their own or a lift or
2:29:11
money for taxes and even if they do they are currently spending three hours of their day stocking traffic on the a428 one of the
2:29:18
most congested and polluted roads in Cambridge here resulting in record levels of acute asthma as noted by Royal
2:29:24
Pap words and other hospitals there is no answer I want this to be
2:29:30
heard very very clearly there is no answer to the now urgent climate crisis without building sustainable
2:29:37
infrastructure that allows fewer burning cars to come off the roads
2:29:42
in closing please reflect if the words or pupils at Campbell Village College don't convince
2:29:49
if the success of the local plan and the economy don't convince if our relatively unimportant Gateway
2:29:57
reviews do not convince please be convinced by the need for
2:30:02
public transport infrastructure the need to do not just pretend we're doing and delaying please let's get this done
2:30:09
thank you thank you so before we move to the the vote we have councilor bowden's request
2:30:16
for recording vote everybody in favor of that that's easily 14 Hands I think thank you
2:30:22
so before we move to the vote I need to remind you uh as the transport on work acts is seeking an order under the terms
2:30:29
of Acts section 239 and local government acts applies which requires a majority of the whole number of the members of
2:30:35
the authority and meeting of the authority therefore in order for the motion to be carried 31 members will
2:30:42
need to vote in favor um Mrs Rowe could I now ask you to open a recorded electronic vote on the motion
2:30:54
members in favor of the motion please press the button underneath the word yes members against the motion please press
2:31:01
the button underneath the word no members wishing to abstain please press
2:31:06
the button underneath the word abstain
2:31:24
pair are now closing the vote the result of the vote is 33 votes in
2:31:29
favor 26 votes against and no abstentions the motion is therefore carried
2:31:37
thank you um so we promised that we'd take the uh the uh Making Connections questions
2:31:44
petition and motion at about one o'clock we're now running a bit late so I'm going to propose that we take a 45
2:31:50
minute break now and return at 1 30 uh with the questions the petition and then
2:31:56
Council accounts motion and we'll defer with the consent of the meeting will defer all other business until after Council accounts motion thank you very
2:32:03
much see you at 1 30.
3:14:38
Steve's not come back
3:16:44
did I ask you all to please take your seats
3:17:41
thank you so good afternoon everybody and thank you for joining us for the second half
3:17:46
of today's County council meeting um there are lots of people in the gallery and also I've been told there
3:17:52
are lots of people in the Overflow room downstairs so it's excellent to see so many people participating in local
3:17:59
government and our Council debates as well so thank you very much for taking the effort to uh turn up today
3:18:06
um so at this point I'm going to skip ahead in the agenda because we said we'd take the items on the uh Making
3:18:12
Connections stz uh issue at one o'clock and it's now 1 30
3:18:18
so people have been waiting patiently so at this point I'm going to take the three public questions uh content of
3:18:25
which has been circulated Electronics all members and published on the council's website so first of all can I
3:18:31
ask South cambridgeshire's District Council councilor Daniel lentini's come forward and ask his questions
3:18:37
lentil sorry
3:18:50
okay let's let's move on then to uh can I ask Mr Rory come in to come forward
3:18:56
and ask his question you have two minutes to ask you a question one minute for a supplementary question and I think
3:19:03
the question is for councilor Beckett
3:19:11
foreign
3:19:26
good afternoon councilors I'd like to start by saying to each and every one of you that this is a real
3:19:32
opportunity for you to relay an unprecedented level of fear mistrust
3:19:38
upset and quite frankly pure Fury that this proposal has engendered in a
3:19:45
population who given recent and current events look naturally to their elected
3:19:51
officials for support what concerns me and the thousands that
3:19:56
have signed this petition is the fact that none of the council is present here today have a mandate for imposing a
3:20:04
congestion charge liberal Democrats and labor knowing this
3:20:09
was in the pipeline for some peculiar reason all failed to mention it at the
3:20:15
last election and yet here they are now United in pushing this monstrosity
3:20:22
forward if I may I would like to direct my question directly to you councilor Alex
3:20:29
Beckett you sit here as the chair of the highways committee
3:20:34
a position of importance and Authority granted to you by the people
3:20:39
I wonder if those that put you in that seat knew about the plans you now so
3:20:45
fervently support my question is this I'd rather like the referendum itself I'm looking for a simple yes or no
3:20:52
in securing this role did you personally include the proposal of a congestion
3:20:58
charge in your Manifesto
3:21:04
it was a Beckett thank you chair and firstly thank you Ms Coleman for your question
3:21:10
um I know we might not necessarily agree but it's great to see residents engage and challenge none of this is easy there
3:21:17
are difficult decisions you made all around but I'm really pleased to see that you are actually here today and able to bring your views that's really
3:21:23
important for all of us thank you the gcp as we all know has carried out one of the biggest and most wide-ranging
3:21:30
consultations in its history it's led to over 24 000 responses it deliberately asked a
3:21:37
range of open and closed questions to ask people where they supported scheme which elements they did support and which elements they didn't afford what
3:21:44
might be what they might like to see done differently or what alternatives they propose this was intended to
3:21:49
provide a richer and more nuanced feedback style than a simple yes or no I do not believe this is a simple yes or
3:21:56
no answer for any of this this is a complex decision that requires complex analysis all of us need to take a look
3:22:03
at what the feedback to the consultation says look at any amendments the gcp might bring and what scheme might be
3:22:09
brought forwards before we decide on what needs to happen thank you
3:22:15
thank you do you have a supplementary question uh yes
3:22:20
right so that's a clear no then um so here's the thing
3:22:26
it's obviously clear that the proposal of a congestion charge was not in your Manifesto so why is it subject to your
3:22:33
party's whip it strikes me that you do not have the right to make a decision on
3:22:38
the matter in that case so do you not agree that it would be moral decent and
3:22:44
Democratic review to either stand for election on this issue to determine whether or not you have our support or
3:22:50
save everybody's time by granting us a referendum today
3:23:02
and thank you for everyone else I know this does invoke an awful lot of passion
3:23:07
on everyone I for one can assure you that I have not been whipped on this issue nobody's told me to vote one way
3:23:13
or the other and I very much intend to use my own moral compass and all the evidence in front of me before I make
3:23:18
any decision on any final scheme that is passed now we owe it to the 28 000 people that
3:23:26
replied to look through those responses we owe it to them all we really do to be
3:23:32
able to set that aside would be the least Democratic thing that we ever did as a council we owe it to them the
3:23:37
results of the consultation will be included in a final report and the gcp scheduled for June 2023 now as you know
3:23:45
the proposals as they currently stand do not have any form of charging being implemented until 2028.
3:23:52
there is a long time to go before this there will be further elections for all of this there will be many many chances
3:23:57
people to have their say and to have their voices heard thank you thank you councilor Beckett next up is councilor
3:24:04
lentil you have two minutes to ask your questions and if you choose one minutes
3:24:09
for a supplementary question
3:24:24
there we go councilors thank you
3:24:33
my name is Dan and I am the South Cambridge District councilor
3:24:39
for over and Willingham uh interestingly in our neck of the woods we've had two by-elections since these proposals were
3:24:47
made one in Long Stanton oakington North Stone
3:24:52
that led to a 40 swing against the lib Dems the party I resigned from over this
3:24:57
issue and last week in cottenham councilor goffs neck of the woods another
3:25:05
40 swing against the live Dems I wonder what came up
3:25:14
this is an issue that affects me as the resident of over and William with
3:25:19
villages which are set to be considerably worse off if Adam Brooks is
3:25:25
included in the zone also as a South cams District councilor for that Ward I can see the serious
3:25:32
damage to trust and confidence in our system that will be done if such a large
3:25:39
Innovation is done without any kind of mandate
3:25:45
either in a regular election or through a referendum
3:25:50
and I would argue that one thing that you can all do and we can all do to turn the temperature
3:25:56
down and to engage properly with the debate not hate agenda
3:26:05
this is a question can you ask a question please what is democratic
3:26:12
about doing stuff to people without their consent and what is liberal about doing stuff to people without their
3:26:19
consent thank you chair you've answered backwards
3:26:27
thank you and thank you Dan for bringing this question um Adam Brooks is obviously incredibly
3:26:33
important to all of us it's an institution which plays such a part in all of our lives
3:26:39
I know myself I have to thank the staff of adverts for the help they've given to my family uh personally I'll never
3:26:45
forget having to rush my wife there from my wedding engagement party and spit standing by her bed for the next week as
3:26:51
she recover from serious illness I'll never forget saying goodbye to one of my friends in the papworth I don't think I'll ever
3:26:58
be able to thank the staff of Anna Brooks enough for what they have done for all of us and I think it's incredibly important
3:27:04
that you bring these points it's really important to all of us the story of Transport Adam Brooks though isn't so simple
3:27:10
representing Queen Edith on the border of Adam Brooks I know firsthand what
3:27:16
misery inconsiderate drivers visiting the hospital can cause both sides willing councilor until I've
3:27:22
been willing to introduce you to the residents of Red Cross to hear their personal stories if you wanted to
3:27:29
simply I've heard from other residents who've had to choose between staying at the hospital for the treatment they need or catching the last bus home
3:27:36
we've heard from Mike Moore the chair of Cambridge University Hospital about the lack of public transport has on staff
3:27:42
recruitment All In All Transport around Adam Brooks is a difficult issue which
3:27:48
requires much serious thoughtful consideration serious consideration which is often not possible given the
3:27:55
binary and dividing nature of a referendum the gcp has carried out the
3:28:00
biggest and most wide-ranging consultation as I've said before 24 000 responses it deliberately asked a range
3:28:07
of open and closed questions so those exact issues could be captured and analyzed we owe it to all of those
3:28:12
residents to listen to all of those responses and analyze I'm sure we'll hear much more
3:28:18
discussions about the pros and cons of a referendum I know I have one more question asking about it before the debate is closed but we owe it to people
3:28:25
to listen to what they say thank you thank you Council enter you now have a one minute to ask a supplementary
3:28:31
question if you choose the M11 access corridors play absolutely no applying congestion into Cambridge so my
3:28:38
residents do not need to have a paywall between them and their health care put up by the labor and the Dem councilors
3:28:45
in this room Charles the first that man of blood he
3:28:50
tried to put in a tax without consent
3:28:56
George III tried to do it tax the 13 colonies without their consents representation
3:29:03
not happening over and over again history is making the mistake you guys are doing right now
3:29:10
so here's my question taxation without representation guys
3:29:16
please don't hang the county over to the Tories do this properly question mark
3:29:24
that's not a question
3:29:29
is there a question there for you to answer um you can try
3:29:35
I don't think any of us uh want to hand the the current County Council over the
3:29:40
conservatives uh we have seen the widest ranging consultation the gcp has ever done and as I said before it is
3:29:47
incumbent on us to look at what that says people are able to give their
3:29:52
representations you being here today is your representation we have seen however many people around talking to us sharing
3:30:00
their issues and I think all of that requires us to look carefully to think carefully and to to take this matter
3:30:06
incredibly seriously which is what it deserves this is not a simple issue and I don't think distilling it down to
3:30:12
simple issues is the way forwards thank you Nick thank you councilors
3:30:18
thank you next up is Mr Royce stamp Mr stamp you have sorry gas account yeah a
3:30:25
point of order chairman it's to follow on from what was said earlier um councilor lentil had 28 seconds left
3:30:31
on the clock to get to his question and there's a briefing before and they have two minutes to get to the question I
3:30:37
don't understand like councilor Tierney doesn't why they were interrupted before the end as they get to the question
3:30:43
because counseling
3:31:06
okay so let me repeat the answer I gave earlier the Constitution allows members of the public to ask to answer a
3:31:13
question in two minutes yeah if he gets to the end of two minutes I don't want to have to cut the members of the public off without getting giving them the
3:31:19
opportunity to ask their question so it was a courtesy to all of the speakers for me to remind them to ask their
3:31:25
question before the end of their time elapsed that is the fairest way of dealing with this I do not wish to get
3:31:31
into a situation of imposing arbitrary limits on some speakers and some question asked us and not to others so
3:31:37
I'm going to enforce those I've been very clear to everybody here I've spoken to all the questioners to tell them I'm going to enforce a two-minute strictly
3:31:44
so it's up to the questioner to answer a simple question inside two minutes is not a lot to ask so again I refer you to
3:31:51
the Constitution but I am following that to the letter as I always do thank you for your question
3:31:56
Mr stamp I'm sorry for that Interruption uh could you please ask your question you have
3:32:02
two minutes and then one minute for a supplementary question if you so choose
3:32:08
um don't you think it's funny that the only people who are happy for the consultation are the minority who are
3:32:15
wanting to impose this new text by the minority I mean 19 according to
3:32:22
the latest polls yes 81 of us stand against this so why are the 19 in favor
3:32:30
of a consultation I know they think they know as you know as we
3:32:38
all know that the only way you're able to bypass democracy is to force this
3:32:43
through by appearing to listen to the people this is not democracy yo all of you here
3:32:50
yo our elected leaders know it you have a duty to defend the Democratic process
3:32:58
not a single one of you stood for election on this issue has been said earlier
3:33:03
you have no mandate and therefore do not have the authority to make a decision for us
3:33:09
do you really want to be responsible further down the line for making this decision on our behalf
3:33:16
I wouldn't not for all the tea in China given that the gravity of the proposal
3:33:22
and the lack of public public trust in the consultation do the council not
3:33:28
agree that the only decent moral and Democratic decision open to them is to
3:33:33
grant that people their right to vote on this contentious issue
3:33:39
um the issue ever discussed in this chamber
3:33:45
councilor Beckett thank you for listening thank you
3:33:50
um and thank you for coming and asking your question I actually thought you were going to ask a question about Foster carers
3:33:55
um but that's fine okay
3:34:01
okay no problem um but thank you for coming along and asking your question it is really vital
3:34:07
that we have everybody engaged um originally I believed you were raising
3:34:12
an issue about Foster carers and it is an incredibly important part to talk about is people with disabilities and
3:34:18
how they're affected by this I hear constantly issues of people uh being infected with disabilities from a lack
3:34:23
of public transport or to parking issues for blue badge holders pavement parking affecting the blide all the way up to
3:34:29
how busy streets can overwhelm children suffering from autism there are these are all things that need
3:34:35
to be carefully considered what are the big strengths of referenda is that they treat everyone voting
3:34:41
equally it is also one of their biggest weaknesses referenda are notoriously bad
3:34:46
at considering the needs of minority groups as we've just highlighted with disabled people is it right it's an
3:34:52
able-bodied person who only visits Cambridge once a week gets the same voice as somebody who's disabled and lives and works in the city
3:34:58
is it right that a 17 year old reliant on public transport to get to an apprenticeship gets no voice at all in a
3:35:04
referendum what about somebody living in Saffron Walden but caring for somebody in the city again they would get no vote
3:35:10
in a referendum so whilst I understand the desired direct democracy and we're
3:35:16
about to have a big debate on this be aware that referenda can lead to some of the very groups that we care about the
3:35:22
most the groups that we're trying to protect to become marginalized and excluded
3:35:33
so you have one minute to ask a supplementary question if you choose well I do thank you for all the
3:35:38
disability parts that you said in that because I've got Parkinson's so I do have a disability but okay then you why would you mind
3:35:46
explaining to me something the consultation could be completed by
3:35:51
anybody anybody in the whole wide world and that has been proved by I.T
3:35:56
Consultants I.T Consultants have verified that it is completely impossible to filter out all the
3:36:03
multiple entries because of this the data being used by the decision makers
3:36:08
is not reliable for that fact so you're talking about the people who just live
3:36:14
around what about the people all over the world you know who voted in it who you know
3:36:20
went for the consultation given the information do the council not agree
3:36:26
that the only way is for a referendum and risk making the wrong decision for
3:36:31
the wrong and due and poor information I was here two weeks ago when I heard
3:36:37
about Jerry bird and all the things that happened to her and I didn't know any of that and that really worried me about
3:36:43
all you councilors making a decision today and that could all happen is up I'm afraid yeah have you've asked a
3:36:49
question I think thank you thank you again
3:36:55
and the point about Council of birth is well heard I don't know if you're aware but after Mill Road all of us that vote
3:37:02
in favor had our public details shared online with people being encouraged to come around to our houses and have it out with us
3:37:08
that's not what we should be doing in public Society it is really important that we all talk and talk about this
3:37:14
this is this is a really a really challenging issue it really is and I believe that so we do really need to
3:37:19
consider it really really carefully and that needs to be done with people being care careful and actually listening to
3:37:25
each other quickly to come back to your point about uh people voting from all over the world that's actually a slight specialist
3:37:31
subject of mine I used to be an I.T security professional what I used to do is doing those sorts of things so there
3:37:37
are very many ways that you can look to exclude those and to look at where people have voted from and to take out multiple responses very happy to do that
3:37:44
the gcp will no doubt be looking very carefully the data to make sure that it is an accurate reflection of what people
3:37:50
believe and they will be doing an authorized analysis on it it is within our bounds and we should be looking at
3:37:55
that data listening to all of those voices and analyzing it and then us taking the very very difficult decisions
3:38:02
forwards after that it isn't going to be an easy decision for any of us but we need to be doing it carefully and
3:38:08
considered thank you thank you that concludes the public questions we're now going to move on to
3:38:15
a petition demanding a referendum to decide on the congestion charge for Cambridge which was was received by the
3:38:21
deadline to allow a spokesperson to speak and contains well over 3000 signatures I think I think the petition
3:38:27
organizer can confirm the actual number um so you can speak this allows the petition organizer or the nominee to
3:38:33
speak at their meeting so could I ask Rory Coleman petition organizer Kieran Johnson to speaker petition you have
3:38:38
five minutes
3:39:11
good afternoon again councilors I'm presenting this petition on behalf of Kieran Johnson
3:39:17
chair of cams against congestion charge who are supported fully by Cambridgeshire residence group
3:39:23
the GMB Union and thousands upon thousands of ordinary people who will have their lives impacted by the
3:39:30
introduction of this new tax in addition to the fifteen thousand six
3:39:35
hundred signatures on this petition I feel it pertinent to mentioned the 29
3:39:41
000 signatures raised on change.org petition started by Liam Garrity
3:39:46
as well as the 8 000 signatures raised by Anthony Brown be under No Illusion
3:39:54
the full weight of public opinion is presented here with the current poll standing at 81 against the proposed
3:40:03
congestion charge and to dismiss this request in our opinion would send a
3:40:08
frightful message to the people that you are supposed to represent and we
3:40:13
strongly advise you not to sow the wind
3:40:18
I have heard Council of agent of the gcp labor councilor for romsey Ward state that it would be far too expensive to
3:40:25
hold a referendum that we simply cannot afford it well the people of Cambridge have an
3:40:31
answer for that we can't afford not to hold a referendum the care workers can't afford not to the
3:40:38
trades people can't afford not to the small businesses can't afford not to the
3:40:44
infirm who don't qualify for blue badges can't afford not to the low-income households can't afford
3:40:51
not to the GMP Union state that their members can't afford not to the
3:40:57
thousands of residents that took to the streets to march to protest can't afford not to
3:41:03
you can't afford to not hold this referendum either because the eyes of the whole of
3:41:10
Cambridgeshire are upon you now as our elected officials
3:41:17
where consultations fail democracy must prevail and this consultation has failed
3:41:26
the process has lost the trust of the people and for good reason
3:41:31
it is widely felt that the questions were weighted to achieve the outcomes desired by the gcp
3:41:38
many valid points are able to be overlooked in Final deliberations and furthermore the council's decision
3:41:45
is not bound by the outcome of a consultation in any case
3:41:50
this consultation is not democracy referendum is
3:41:57
judging by what has been said in the media we have a horrible suspicion that another argument that will be used by this Council to brush aside this fair
3:42:04
and reasonable demand is that the issue is far too nuanced for a simple yes no vote to be appropriate
3:42:10
that argument may have held some weight had 350 000 pounds of our money not
3:42:17
being spent on a comprehensive campaign by the gcp to ensure that we are all
3:42:23
fully aware of the supposed benefits that the proposed charge is set to deliver
3:42:29
let me stress that we are not calling for a referendum on the more nuanced
3:42:34
issues in any case we simply demand that the gcp rethink their method of funding
3:42:41
and adjust their Ambitions accordingly they must cut their coat according to
3:42:47
their cloth before you make your decision today it falls to us to remind you all that
3:42:53
not a single member of this chamber or indeed all of Cambridgeshire stood for election on this issue
3:42:59
that the council therefore have no mandate to make a decision that will impact the lives of so many people there
3:43:06
must be no taxation without representation it is a sad indictment that councilors
3:43:14
have been rushing to remove their contact details from the public domain granted it's sense of all the move given
3:43:21
that the current climate but it shouldn't have to be that way this is only necessary because the
3:43:27
counselors are no longer representing the needs of their constituents and offering them support with their
3:43:33
concerns it is time for Attitudes to change we call upon you now to put aside your
3:43:40
personal beliefs to put aside what your party expects of you
3:43:45
to stand up proudly for democracy and the people that you represent to acknowledge the people's lack of
3:43:51
belief in the consultation to have faith in their good judgment and ultimately to
3:43:57
preserve the Dignity of this chamber by handing the burden of this Dreadful decision to Those whom it affects the
3:44:05
most thank you
3:44:19
thank you as there's a motion councilor count agenda item 10B calling for a
3:44:25
local poll I propose that the petition be debated as part of this item so can we move to Temp B now and can I
3:44:32
ask councilor Chris Bowden on behalf of council account to move and speak to the motion as set out on pages four and five
3:44:38
of the council agenda happy to move uh judge you want me to speak straight away
3:44:44
thank you very much and teacher well this motion is not about the pros and
3:44:52
cons of the congestion charge this is about holding a local poll
3:44:58
and there's been no issue I think which has generated more heat over the last 12
3:45:03
months than we've had when discussing the imposition of a congestion charge
3:45:08
around Cambridge and we've heard very clearly from the
3:45:14
questions which have just been asked and also from the petition organizer
3:45:20
that there is a massive concern that there is a democratic deficit here
3:45:26
residents across the county both within Cambridge City and outside it
3:45:32
are asking when their views will be taken into account since virtually none of them was asked
3:45:39
at the last local elections what the opinion was that they had of their
3:45:44
candidates since the candidates in front of them didn't say whether they were supporting or opposing a congestion
3:45:51
charge in Cambridge so they have no opportunity through the election process of the Lost County
3:45:56
council elections to give their Democratic opinion and we're still in the invidious
3:46:02
position chair that some of the councilors who are
3:46:08
amongst the strongest supporters of congestion charging are still publicly
3:46:14
claiming that they haven't yet made up their minds and they're waiting to hear what the result is of the gcp gcp
3:46:20
consultation and they're doing so no doubt first of all to avoid any accusations of
3:46:25
predetermination and secondly it may be because they know what the opinion of the people really is and there's been
3:46:32
enough of this pointless political playing around the people actually want their say and
3:46:38
they are suspicious that they're not going to be given their Say by this Council no wonder there was so much
3:46:43
anger expressed in those questions and in the petition that we've just heard
3:46:49
now before this debate began councilor Beckett actually gave us some useful information
3:46:56
first of all uh he said that there is a major consultation that is the gcp
3:47:01
consultation with some 24 000 respondents but there is very little
3:47:08
confidence that this consultation is actually going to be fair and there's a number of reasons for that the first as
3:47:15
has already been mentioned is that many of the questions were to the extent that they could be slanted in favor of a
3:47:21
particular outcome that didn't give people confidence when they were filling in the the form that it was going to be
3:47:27
there the second reason is that probably
3:47:32
knowing what the answer is that they will know what the answer was very quickly most of the questions were or a
3:47:38
significant number of the questions were simple multiple choice questions and within days they will have known what
3:47:45
the results of those multiple choice questions were there were other questions where people had to fill in writing and would have taken some time
3:47:50
to to uh to go through those 24 000 of them but where there were multiple choice questions those answers would
3:47:56
have been known to the gcp within days of the close of the consultation
3:48:02
yet here we are still not knowing what the result of that was and we were told it will take six months from the close
3:48:09
of consultation to the time it will be announced noticeably after the next local elections
3:48:15
and one can only imagine well can we come to the conclusion that that's because this whole process isn't a fair
3:48:21
process and it's being slanted to achieve a particular solution
3:48:26
but councilor Beckett did actually give us an interesting uh solution to this or partial solution he admitted that there
3:48:34
hadn't been any Democratic uh vote on this people hadn't had been given the opportunity in elections to vote Pro or
3:48:40
anti-congestion charging but he did point out that the congestion charge won't come in before the 2028 elections
3:48:46
and the opportunities sorry until 2028 and there would be elections before 2028
3:48:52
giving people the opportunity to have their say so I would like to thank councilor Beckett for that suggestion
3:48:58
and suggest to Residents in Cambridge sitting in East Cambridgeshire and in Finland that in a couple of months time
3:49:05
when they have the opportunity to vote pay attention to the fact that labor and the liberal Democrats are trying to
3:49:10
force this through and vote accordingly give the politicians who are trying to
3:49:15
support this proposal a very clear message because ultimately Believe It or Not politicians depend upon your votes
3:49:22
and if they see they're not getting your votes they may actually change their minds finally I have made a requests for
3:49:29
under Freedom of Information to get the data that the gcp know about the result of this consultation they've turned me
3:49:36
down they've turned down the appeal I am now appealing to the information commissioner to give us the information which the gcp are trying to hide thank
3:49:43
you chairman thank you
3:49:48
thank you councilor Bowden do you have a second of that motion yeah happy the second chair would love me to speak now it's up to
3:49:55
you would you like to speak now I'll speak now thank you for anything to Warrant the possible
3:50:00
unbudgeted expenditure of Circa one and a half million to even be considered it has to be the
3:50:06
top of discussions amongst the residents of our wonderful County and no this isn't even potholes regrettably this
3:50:13
situation is the congestion charge the dictated situation we find ourselves in in the legal restrictions on
3:50:19
predetermination mean we must be careful that that which we say so I will be careful and I will try to keep it as
3:50:25
short as possible I cannot think of many matters that need to say of the entire County but this
3:50:31
proposal is possibly revised possibly to be revised by The gcp Driven outcome
3:50:37
looks to improve lives of Cambridge residents whilst impacting not 100 positively the lives of residents
3:50:44
elsewhere such as my ward of soham North and Iceland we've heard lots of talk
3:50:50
around uh this and Eisen people from Eisen work in Cambridge they work at
3:50:55
Adam Brooks they work in the shops in Cambridge they work in the grand arcade etc etc you are taxing them for coming
3:51:02
to work and that's not right um despite an invitation uh to the gcp
3:51:08
from Southern Town Council nobody's been out to these areas of of our County to talk to them to tell them the benefits
3:51:15
from what what is being proposed we're told that the consultation is currently being worked and we await the answers to
3:51:22
non-cambridge Residents that's like a waiting root canal work from a trainee dentist 24 000 responses to a consultation some
3:51:30
positive some negative we're waiting on the outcomes 15.6 K responses to a petition I think we all know whether
3:51:36
they're positive or negative there were other numbers as well 24 000 from a survey response 15.6 percent
3:51:44
15.6 KL Square 229k from china.org and 8K from Anthony Brown's petition I think
3:51:50
again we probably know which way that they've gone the motion attempts to give the majority and not the minority the chance to have
3:51:56
a say a final say over the Countrywide impact county-wide impacting issue Cambridge is and what should always be
3:52:04
the county town for all in Cambridgeshire I'm born and bred in East Cambridge it's my County Town just as
3:52:10
much as somebody that lives in the city itself the situation has overshadowed some good aspects of the consultation
3:52:16
and that is a shame however I encourage you all on behalf of your residents wherever in our wonderful County you may
3:52:23
have been elected to give them the chance to make such an impactful and contentious decision and back this
3:52:28
amendment for a referendum give the people of Cambridge here their rightful side in a cambridgeshire-wide matter
3:52:33
thank you
3:52:39
thank you so we're going to move to debate now Council deprives first I think was is that what you're expecting from
3:52:44
yes thank you chair it's important to start
3:52:49
by noting that this motion today is not about the merits or otherwise of the
3:52:56
proposals put forward for consultation by the greater Cambridge partnership but about the method by which a decision
3:53:02
should be made about them it is after all perfectly possible to be deeply
3:53:07
skeptical both about the gcp proposals and also about a simplistic yes no
3:53:14
referendum as the means to resolve them a referendum offers a deceptively simple
3:53:20
but also very expensive way of resolving a complex issue far from providing a clear answer it
3:53:27
gives no Clarity at all about any impacts outside whatever simplistic
3:53:33
question has been chosen Cornish fishermen have been learning that lesson for some time now
3:53:39
it's absolutely the worst way to resolve a complex set of interrelated issues
3:53:44
about climate and air quality and the use of public space and how to offer everyone who needs it the opportunity to
3:53:51
move around the county efficiently affordably and safely and about who should pay for that
3:53:57
there is no room for dialogue in a referendum no room for compromise or complexity or cooperation everything is
3:54:04
Black or White yes or no good or bad right or wrong all distilled down into a
3:54:12
simplistic question with a simplistic binary answer a referendum would give no
3:54:17
informative answer on what residents do actually want the council or the greater Cambridge partnership or anyone else to
3:54:25
deliver a referendum would also give a vote to many people whom the issue does not affect at all
3:54:31
and deny a vote to many people whom the issue affects very significantly
3:54:37
people who live in Cambridgeshire but never ever come into Cambridge would have a vote on Journeys they never make
3:54:43
but which others make every day conversely people who live outside
3:54:49
Cambridgeshire for example in Royston or Saffron Walden or Haverhill or Downham Market but who travel into Cambridge
3:54:55
every day would have no say at all on their regular Journey
3:55:00
very elderly residents miles from Cambridge some of whom may never even leave the house would have a vote on
3:55:07
Journeys they would never make but which many younger residents make daily conversely 16 and 17 year olds who are
3:55:15
not on the Electoral register but who travel into Cambridge every day for education or employment will be denied a
3:55:22
vote on their regular Journey this cannot be a just or Fair way to make such a significant decision the 24
3:55:30
000 responses to the gcp's consultation will contain much more information about what people want and what they don't
3:55:37
they will be the basis on which the gcp will decide whether or not it wishes to
3:55:43
progress the scheme it consulted on or some other scheme or not to progress
3:55:48
anything at all and if the gcp does decide which is to progress with a
3:55:53
scheme whatever it is and I strongly suspect it won't be the scheme that's been consulted on if they do and if it
3:56:00
involves any element of Road pricing it will then be up to councilors here in this chamber to vote on that one way or
3:56:07
the other it's called representative democracy and it's how this country has made decisions since the introduction of
3:56:13
the universal franchise and it will be a decision of this Council not of the
3:56:18
district councils as the party opposite are pretending
3:56:26
councilor Tierney thank you chairman
3:56:32
now personally I'm ideologically opposed to movement taxes I believe that moving across non-private land is a fundamental
3:56:40
human right that all human beings should enjoy and so I don't appreciate any time that attack is imposed on people to move
3:56:46
in and out of their home to moving out of their business to moving out of their place of leisure to move in in and out
3:56:52
of a place where they go for medical services I think that's wrong now it's true that people have raised
3:56:58
that this this proportionately affects those who are more vulnerable who have less money to spend because of course they're less
3:57:04
likely to be able to afford that New Movement tax but that's not my issue my issue is that movement taxes themselves
3:57:10
are unsound they just shouldn't be proposed I've heard a couple of people already
3:57:15
speak about the problem with referenda I believe they're wrong and I'd like to explain why of course there is
3:57:21
absolutely scope for wide discussion in a referendum because both sides put their arguments to the public and the
3:57:28
public think about those arguments and then they come to a decision but fundamentally the final decision is
3:57:33
shall we do this thing that's proposed or not it is a binary choice but leading
3:57:38
up to it wide range of discussion can and would be had on both sides of the argument that is always the case now if
3:57:45
you don't put your argument well enough to win that's your fault that's not down to the public and what I'm most worried
3:57:50
about in this criticism of referendums is it's mistrustful of the public it suggests that you're capable of thinking
3:57:56
of these deep issues but they aren't but of course they are of course they are
3:58:01
so it's not fair to say that I believe that a referendum is necessary here I
3:58:06
wouldn't always say this because referendums are expensive that's true and you won't want to have a reference number for every small decision you make
3:58:12
but this fulfills the need for a respirator for two reasons first of all it is fundamentally transformative of
3:58:19
the area it will affect everyone it will affect them dramatically and will affect them forever and you may well be looking
3:58:25
back in 10 years and thinking what on Earth did we do it's that transformative it's that effective you can see that by
3:58:31
the huge voting uh positions where people 81 I think it was said that they oppose it I mean you've got to listen to
3:58:37
that you've got to listen to it but the second reason is because you could argue I will go ahead anyway if you'd already
3:58:45
made the case if you'd only gone to the public in a previous election and said this is what we're going to do please
3:58:50
vote for us and they will vote for you well of course then you've got a mandate then you can say I don't need to have a repentance we've already said where
3:58:56
we're going to do this and you voted Us in but you didn't you didn't now I would just ask every one of you to
3:59:03
think about this we all depend as counselors on the Goodwill of the public in trusting that
3:59:09
we'll do our job properly if we take something this dramatic forwards without a democratic mandate it
3:59:15
affects us all forever it makes people think well what's the point I don't trust them anymore we don't need that we
3:59:21
don't want it we only we're only able to do the work we do with the support of the public so I will absolutely be
3:59:27
supporting a referendum please everyone do so thank you
3:59:33
Council Sanderson thank you chair um I think it's fair to say this motion
3:59:39
is before us for party political purposes but I accept that there's some genuine concerns about the congestion
3:59:45
charge about the implications for residents and about the consultation so I think we should consider this very
3:59:50
carefully we all know the perils and consequences of referenda even if the result gives
3:59:55
you the answer that you think you want there are still considerable problems with it the question as counselors you pray said
4:00:02
on congestion charging means a lot of things different things to a lot of different people depending on their age
4:00:07
gender location and background and I'd be interested to hear if the Electoral
4:00:12
commission have indicated if they will support this and what the question on the ballot paper will be I understand
4:00:18
from the motion there will be some consultation on that but I think getting the question right will be very
4:00:24
difficult the problem I have with this is that it will give a vote to many people whom the issue does not affect at all and I'll
4:00:31
deny a vote to many people who the issue of fix affects very significantly I think the referendum may also
4:00:37
discriminate discriminated by geography people who live in Cambridge here but never come into Cambridge they may live
4:00:43
45 miles away from the city that is they would have a vote on Journeys they never make which
4:00:49
Others May make every day if they happen to live over the Border in Royston Safra Malden or Haverhill for example they
4:00:56
would have no say at all and I was also interested in the language used by the petitioner because he used
4:01:01
the term Cambridge and Cambridgeshire interchangeably in his comments I wasn't
4:01:07
clear if he was suggesting that it should be residents in Cambridge have a vote or in the whole of the county and I
4:01:13
think that's going to be an important distinction here but we're obviously going to discuss later emotion from Council to pray about
4:01:20
um use of voter ID polls which will obviously come into effect in May
4:01:27
that will also have a huge effect on this poll that'll apply to referenda that will apply to Neighborhood plans
4:01:32
and that will include parliamentary elections as well so we'll certainly apply to this proposal as well and there'll be
4:01:39
thousands of residents of Cambridge who live and work there but who are not eligible to vote who live in the city they won't be eligible to promote in UK
4:01:45
and local elections and they'll be ineligible to vote on this and it will reduce a very complex
4:01:52
problem to a very simplistic question and we have no details about that question or the data will be held it'll
4:01:58
be focused perhaps on just one aspect of that I doubt it will give us an informative answer
4:02:06
um what do residents want what do they want from the gcp but what we do know is this motion will
4:02:12
cost one and a half million pounds from our finance resources now we will Ambassador at the budget by members
4:02:17
across the aisle for not doing enough to protect vital Services services for vulnerable people but now we're being told that we can
4:02:24
afford to allocate one and a half million pounds even before we've listened to the voices from the consultation 24 000 responses I think it
4:02:32
would be wrong to preempt the results of that consultation you know some have suggested that on social media they have
4:02:38
many different concerns and alternative ideas and they must be considered carefully be caught before we come to an
4:02:44
informed judgment now I'm sure there'll be changes because of the consultation but we don't know to
4:02:49
what extent those will be certain locations could be included certain locations could be excluded the
4:02:56
affects a particular to particular Travelers or families or businesses they could all change
4:03:02
I don't think doing nothing for transport in Cambridge is an option I've heard no alternative proposals we're not
4:03:09
here necessarily to discuss the congestion charge but I understand that both South cams and the city
4:03:15
council are working towards their development plans that will have a huge effect on this as well so I can't support this motion but I
4:03:21
will follow carefully the debate on congestion charging as we move to the next stage thank you chair thank you
4:03:28
councilor McDonald thank you chair um I'd like to address two particular
4:03:35
aspects that we're discussing here today around this proposal first around the referendum or the
4:03:41
proposed referendum itself so I posed the question what is the
4:03:46
question in this do you want an improved bus service if you want a reduction in pollution do
4:03:52
you want a good environment for pedestrians do you want businesses to be able to get around
4:03:58
do you want a city that's future proofed are these the questions if you did want or were willing to
4:04:04
accept a per congestion charge for what at what time at what rate in which days
4:04:12
it won't have escaped the notice of a lot of people how many Tory authorities have
4:04:17
implemented a referendum for new charging models I can answer the question none
4:04:24
did Boris Johnson conduct a referendum on the increase in the congestion charge in London from 10 pounds to 11 pound 50
4:04:32
no because there was a public consultation implemented before anything
4:04:37
happened there when that when the original London congestion charge was introduced in 2003
4:04:44
300 new buses were introduced across the network the gcp in the consultation is talking
4:04:52
about a huge increase also and 30 electric buses have already been approved and coming into service this
4:04:58
year so these are quick key questions I would say around the referendum itself
4:05:03
now a lot has been talked about the consultation the engagement process many of the members here and I think you
4:05:10
heard that from councilor Beckett would love to engage with the anti-congestion charge group on this we really would but
4:05:18
some of the members of the group have incited attacks on members and we saw that during the Mill Road
4:05:25
debate so I repeat the um advice that came from uh councilor
4:05:32
Beckett which is engage with us there is a consultation going to be published I have no idea what that consultation says
4:05:40
so now is your window of opportunity to engage with us all one of the previous speakers it has to
4:05:46
be said posted photographs and videos of one female member
4:05:52
after the March in Cambridge and incited to tax on them I had a conversation via email with Neil
4:05:59
Mackay very good one actually about um potential effects on business
4:06:04
but Neil never said to me at that time in that uh you know come along to the
4:06:09
March we will video and post your image and then encourage members to attack you
4:06:14
that is no way to go about a consultation and engagement so I'd like to talk about the 1.5
4:06:21
million that's been talked about in the paper and I do have some advice for the group all of you are concerned you could
4:06:28
spend not 1.5 million you can spend three pound fifty buy it a coffee and
4:06:33
just talk to us in a rational way about this issue about what your concerns are uh you know in advance of the
4:06:40
consultation being published and subsequent to that so I do call upon all of you wanting
4:06:46
referendum to engage with us no demonizing no Facebook posts of our
4:06:53
names and addresses no threats just straightforward engagement come and talk
4:06:58
to us finally chair I just want to point out that the government have published a
4:07:05
paper in the house Commons library in February 2022 on road charging and it may clear from that paper and the
4:07:12
majority of course on the transport Committee in the House of Commons are conservatives that whatever government
4:07:18
comes into power they will have to consider Road charging if not to implement it
4:07:24
so I want to ask all those conservative members here that they will oppose any
4:07:30
road charging mechanisms that are proposed by any future government whether it's Tory labor lib Dem anything
4:07:38
else and so there's a great opportunity for them to say that today
4:07:43
in order not to predetermine myself on this issue in order to get the maximum
4:07:48
benefit from the consultation and in order to look to a full engagement with
4:07:54
all of you who are concerned about this issue I cannot support a referendum but
4:07:59
I do encourage and look forward to a full engagement thank you chair
4:08:04
thank you councilor gay please
4:08:10
uh thank you chairs it's been stated over and over again that this Council does not have a
4:08:17
democratic mandate for our city access plans well I want to take you back to 2021
4:08:24
when the Denver Democratic process for this Council was run and ended up in the
4:08:30
joint Administration agreement what did that have to say about transport
4:08:35
well I quote it says we will focus on modal shift to encourage more residents
4:08:40
out of their cars along with infrastructure developments to encouragement of a sustainable travel
4:08:47
and securing safe routes and connections for pedestrians and cyclists we will
4:08:52
seek to invest more in Road footway and cycleway maintenance on routine Gully clearance
4:08:58
and then the freeze on residence parking schemes so that is what we are trying to
4:09:05
implement in the city access plan and a congestion charge which may or may not
4:09:10
come in in 2028 is one small part of that overall Vision which we are now
4:09:16
working hard to implement so we have a democratic mandate what do you
4:09:22
protesters have as a democratic mandate you have nothing but your anger your
4:09:27
abuse and your threats
4:09:34
now it's the Howell please now follow that
4:09:40
um chairman very very short I find it difficult to sit here and listen that
4:09:46
members of the public wouldn't exactly understand the complexity of the um
4:09:52
congestion charge and therefore shouldn't have the referendum on it and yet those same people from that party
4:10:00
were asking for a second referendum with regards to brexit a referendum which I'm sure would be far
4:10:06
more complex would be far would have been far more detailed than ever what we
4:10:11
could have done and therefore chairman I find that challenge in sitting here today and therefore I will be voting for
4:10:18
the um notary solution thank you thank you Council sharp please
4:10:26
thank you chair um I will touch on I wasn't going to
4:10:31
mention it but after Council of Gay's comments I will um what happened at the highways and
4:10:36
transport committee two years ago with councilor Byrd was out of order when she was harangue by members of her own party
4:10:42
and certainly what happened we should be able to say what we think here without being harangue by other
4:10:50
um people and I don't accept his comment but that let's move on to what I was going to say
4:10:57
I hear counselor Beckett say that we need to wait for the result of the consultation and I use that word very
4:11:03
Loosely and I'll touch on that in a moment in reference to councilor lentil I will
4:11:08
happily take on running this Council because we would not have put up residence council tax by as much as five
4:11:14
four point nine nine percent and we would have put more money into highways maintenance as we propose now
4:11:19
as an alternative budget which is needed at a seminar to East clams District
4:11:26
councils by the CEO and transport director of the gcp on the 26th of September 2022
4:11:33
I ask that they ensure that the consultation had meaningful questions that's short to ensure the true views of
4:11:39
residents were gained and not leading questions they said they would
4:11:44
sadly the com the consultation that came out is designed to gain a certain outcome
4:11:50
a decision of this magnitude needs a referendum of all residents of the county of Cambridge or as it affects
4:11:55
everyone we have a gcp that is not Democratic no one is directly elected to the gcp so
4:12:02
there is no mandate the gcp members so I've just lost my train that can put before the electorate and be voted in on
4:12:10
I was told off by the chairman of Highways and transport committee about six months ago for calling the gcp
4:12:15
undemocratic and was told that I should direct my comments to the CCC appointed representative on the gcp
4:12:23
I did email our representative and have never received a reply I haven't bothered since
4:12:29
there is no way that I can discuss this with our appointed CCC representative accepting debates like this
4:12:36
that's not in my opinion democracy and operation I've said many times that the gcp has no
4:12:43
master plan just loads of individual schemes Each of which are separately consulted on using the term loosely
4:12:50
each of those schemes impinge on other schemes so we just moved the issue from one part of Cambridge to another
4:12:55
location I have con concerns about some of the congestion charge proposals that will
4:13:01
tax the poorer parts of the community the 10 pound charge for the self-employed van owner who lives in
4:13:08
Cambridge the plumber the electrician the Builder and the inclusion of Adam Brooks in the zone
4:13:15
council do you pray criticized a referendum as undemocratic and under and I understand some of the issues that she
4:13:20
raises about people outside the county who live outside the county and accept that point but the alternative is going
4:13:28
with an undemocratic body that has not received a mandate from residents recommending a proposal to this Council
4:13:35
I would remind councilor Sanderson that democracy comes at a cost and that is a
4:13:41
small price to pay I will be supporting the motion thank you
4:13:47
Council Bullard thank you chair I think it's not
4:13:52
hopefully not pretty determined to say that I think most of counselors have a lot of concerns about the current proposals as they stand and many of us
4:14:00
make those concerns heard in meetings with residents in our meetings with gcp officers and so on including you know
4:14:06
very pertinent comments about Adam Brooks about people how the different low-income exemptions would potentially
4:14:12
work uh the Zone itself was on Boundary itself and many other aspects of the scheme but that's I think precisely why
4:14:19
we have a consultation so those responses could be analyzed and that's on the point debates today so what's in
4:14:25
front of me what I see in front of me is a decision on whether a referendum could be a good way to sort out on one hand
4:14:31
some of the transport challenges transport issues that we're having at the moment in our County and secondly a
4:14:37
way to sort out or perhaps get out of this Democratic deficit that many of our residents experience at the moment and I
4:14:45
think on both counts I don't think the referendum is the right solution and I would like to explain why was there in
4:14:51
this debate today first I find it very difficult to have a referendum or any yes or no or no answer on a scheme that
4:14:58
doesn't exist yet because I really do hope whatever scheme if a skin proceeds from the gcp's analysis would look
4:15:06
different to the one that it's this today so if we had a referendum say tomorrow what I would be asked to vote
4:15:11
on as a cambridger president would be to have an ideological Vote or whether I ideologically oppose in an ideological
4:15:18
sense a form of charging or not without any kind of detail and I think a lot of people are in the middle I think of
4:15:24
course some people would oppose it under any circumstances but just picking the residents for example what would you say to people who are saying well I would
4:15:31
cross their City Center on its own but not a white zone for example there are a lot of people who are on the middle ground for whom like making a purely
4:15:37
ideological decision would it wouldn't really work although for so but some you know it would
4:15:43
um I don't think I also want to address the point about you know the local elections and counselors not having a mandate because I actually don't think a
4:15:49
reference them is necessarily more representative than local elections and the opposite so if I was looking at the
4:15:55
turnout in the County council elections in 2021 there are thinking correct me if I'm wrong two divisions in the whole
4:16:01
County Council that has to have a turnout of over 50 percent in the local elections one is in Cambridge City and
4:16:07
one is in March actually I think um so in that case if hypothetically we we stood on them you know on all our
4:16:14
leaflets we had like one position on this or the other you could still make the argument the majority of people in
4:16:20
any division didn't vote for any of us here so like if you are opposed to this you could still say like well the counselors even if they stood on a
4:16:26
mandate are not represented by the majority of people in their division let alone temperature even within you know
4:16:32
even if they came first in the first possible system so I could find the argument that bits a bit difficult in the size in terms of that representation
4:16:39
actually mean and referendums as well as local elections in my view are not the most representative way because the same
4:16:45
people who are more likely to vote in local elections to be voting for us are the same groups of people who are more
4:16:50
or less likely to vote in a referendum so constantly across all elections there's some people who don't have the vote at all so for example before I was
4:16:57
British I could vote for my local counselor but I couldn't have voted in a referendum although I put you know I'm a
4:17:02
Cambridge resident so there's this group of people people who are low on low-income private renters younger
4:17:08
people they're all less likely to vote in some and not other elections so that's like you know it's a big question
4:17:13
of what you know at what point the referendum is advisory and I have to say like you know because we have some
4:17:19
brexit comparisons before brexit was actually implemented as a very friendly decision David Cameron what did he do he
4:17:26
tried to negotiate and find a compromise with the EU on the migration issues alongside other things and he said okay
4:17:32
I tried I tried to find the compromise here's the new deal with the EU then we have a referendum so in a similar way
4:17:37
you know he kind of consulted and tried his best to compromise before he put the decision to the public so not that I
4:17:43
agree very much with David Cameron but at least you know he tried to find compromise before that
4:17:48
um so I do for those business I can't really support a referendum as a solution in that sense some points have
4:17:55
been mentioned around for example like why does my partner who lives in New Market and actually drives to Cambridge
4:18:00
for work why wouldn't have had have a say and myself who doesn't you know own a current Cambridge will have a say
4:18:06
there's so many questions about the validity I think technicality of a referendum but I want to end on this I
4:18:12
do agree there is a democratic deficit in a lot of the decision making it's not only on this issue it's a lot of
4:18:17
decisions where people feel they don't have a say and what is really interesting is this whole debate around making connections actually started with
4:18:24
a Citizens assembly so I wonder if this is an opportunity actually to recognize Democratic deficit and think perhaps
4:18:30
there are better ways to do democracy on such difficult decisions if they started citizen assembly who's actually which is
4:18:35
actually representative of the local population could it end with it could similar schemes and with certain candidates in the future but I just
4:18:42
don't sing a referendum for many reasons that I don't have time to fit in five minutes like make sense in this moment
4:18:47
and it's quite premature in that sense thank you thank you um we haven't heard from
4:18:54
enough of David councilor machine you're next thank you thank you very much chair and I am very grateful to my colleagues who
4:19:01
have made quite a lot of the points that I think should have informed the debate today
4:19:06
um I I'm very grateful to the people that have come here asking us to do this it's
4:19:11
a very important debate for us to have but at the same time we have to recognize a number of things
4:19:18
we want to have a referendum on this issue the franchise doesn't cover all affected children immigrant residents
4:19:24
out of County commuters are now covered by the franchise we can't make all our decisions on yes
4:19:30
and no questions we cannot we absolutely cannot I know people would like to but we cannot and the timing of the
4:19:37
referendums have been requested does not make any sense whatsoever we can't have a vote in May on a scheme that doesn't
4:19:42
exist so maybe we are trying to influence other elections that might be going on
4:19:47
at that point we also need to reflect on the nature of referendums and the fact that those
4:19:53
calling for them often do so for reasons other than the immediate issue at hand it might be that they want to gain an
4:19:59
immediate advantage in a local election or it might be that they need to blockade backbenches
4:20:05
I would like to invite colleagues to reflect on how well recent instances of this kind of thing have worked
4:20:12
Pandora didn't get to put the things back in the box when she didn't like what they were we currently in this
4:20:18
country still haunted by the demons we released in 2014 and 2016. bad things
4:20:24
happen to those who make forced impact for their immediate gain long-term pain
4:20:29
followers I would also remind colleagues of our responsibilities as elected members we
4:20:36
live in a representative democracy which means that the people elect us to make decisions and we are then accountable
4:20:42
for them at The Ballot Box in the Constitutional environment of the UK referendums are necessarily advisory
4:20:49
an Administration can choose to make itself Bound by the result of a referendum but that decision doesn't
4:20:55
absolve it of all the other responsibilities that it has we have a problem in Cambridge here we
4:21:02
have a problem of underfunded and decline in public service a problem of unsupported population growth whose
4:21:08
benefits we all want but whose consequences we have to manage or those benefits will not materialize
4:21:15
these problems aren't going away whatever answer we get in a referendum solving these problems will require
4:21:21
difficult painful decisions whatever we do and the temptation to pass the Box
4:21:26
surely is very strong you know let's ask a question let's get along with Don no we're not done
4:21:32
we don't get to pass the block we still have a job to do we still have a problem to solve and it is still our job to
4:21:37
solve it and nobody else is so I am begging colleagues pleased to be grown up about this let's look a problem in
4:21:44
the face and let's take our responsibilities that's please not hide things end up badly if you hide
4:21:50
and if you're too cowardly to do the job that you were elected to do my name isn't David Cameron and yours shouldn't
4:21:57
be thank you councilor Josh Schumann please
4:22:04
thank you chairman um two brief points firstly to say that earlier in debates
4:22:11
we've heard the importance of having all the necessary information in which to make decisions we've heard that similar
4:22:17
comment made during this debate I understood the proposal today to be another tool for the administration or
4:22:24
whoever be making a final decision to have another piece of information before making a decision a tool which they
4:22:31
shouldn't be frightened of it's a we've heard the consultation provides data
4:22:36
quantitative data or qualitative data and much more finessed data well fine if
4:22:42
that's what you want to use then that's absolutely fine but why are you scared of additional data this is simply asking
4:22:50
a question in which to give you more information on which to base your decisions the second point I wish to make is that
4:22:57
the chairman of the highways and transport committee and other members seem to suggest that by doing this poll
4:23:04
or referendum that residents of Cambridge here will be incapable of considering others when they cast their
4:23:10
vote I think that's frankly disgusting I've spoken to Residents I've spoken to
4:23:16
Residents where I live who have consistently thought of others when they've casted votes on things or passed
4:23:23
the cast their vote in local elections and to suggest that they wouldn't take into account the impacts on the disabled
4:23:29
or less vulnerable is a sad indictment of the brilliant people of Cambridge here
4:23:34
chairman I'd like to quote a few words from a resignation statement from a liberal Democrat
4:23:40
who said it is beyond dishonest it is dishonorable for lib Dems to say
4:23:46
they are not that they are on the fence about these proposals their leadership is 100 percent
4:23:53
determined to impose a congestion charge in my opinion chairman quite honestly
4:24:01
people that don't want to ask the question the reason why is they're scared of the answer have some courage
4:24:08
and ask the question
4:24:14
counselor Jew thank you chair um
4:24:21
I am not as members that won't be surprised here ideologically opposed to
4:24:27
having a referendum on any subject under the sun however I do feel that as part of this
4:24:34
project where at the moment we're not in a position to have all the knowledge and information how we would exactly word
4:24:39
that or what it should be about is beyond my uh you know ability to uh
4:24:45
guess I mean you know there is no doubt an issue in and around Cambridge that with congestion
4:24:52
generally access to the city and in the future growth it's going to get worse not better that the answer to do nothing
4:24:59
is not an option so we've got to do something it may well be that's you know as the plans develop and come to us and
4:25:06
they haven't as yet they're purely as unless anyone's going to correct me sitting with the greater Cambridgeshire partnership at the moment so until they
4:25:12
come to us we're not in a position to actually oh I'm not in a position of the council to look at it and decide whether or not the overall project is a good one
4:25:19
that I should be supporting or otherwise it may well be that when that comes through at the end of the day at that point we may say this is the proposal as
4:25:26
a whole and put that to a referendum if we start cherry picking parts before we get there we we're in danger of actually
4:25:33
never actually coming up with a conclusion that we can live with and I think we owe that to lots of people and we really do you know it's important
4:25:39
that people who have somehow um you know um got themselves furnished
4:25:45
Scottish that the actual congestion charge is the only issue here um need to know that we are listening to
4:25:50
them and it's important to do so because I know you know the people I represent and uh in Huntington lots of people do
4:25:56
go from hunting this year into Cambridge every day so we need to have some solutions and some answers I have the
4:26:02
greatest simply as I say with having a referendum I feel at the moment is premature and it may be later on it's
4:26:07
the right way to go but we need to as the elected representatives actually sift out all this information it's going
4:26:12
to come to us and come to a conclusion before we're in any position to agree to a referendum or even if the proposal has
4:26:18
come to us to take them forward and uh you know I'd like to see what happens in due course so thank you very much chairman
4:26:25
thank you councilor Kent thank you yeah thank you chairman
4:26:33
um yesterday I was in a meeting regarding congestion charge and I think pretty
4:26:39
much I could have predicted most of the words that were used for things like people outside the area
4:26:45
can't vote the fact that uh it's not ready yet we don't know what proposal will come to
4:26:50
the County Council one and a half million pounds too expensive all of them I could have predicted all
4:26:56
of them very weak arguments as I'll come to in a moment there were some different points raised which I I was quite
4:27:03
surprised by um councilor Nick gays a very brave statement that you have a political mandate because a document
4:27:10
that you draw up after you were elected The Pact uh mentioned something about improved public transport didn't mention
4:27:16
congestion charging and that was after you got elected but uh well done for trying to convince us otherwise
4:27:22
um I'm going to take this back to when we were elected the first Council chamber meeting after that when Council
4:27:29
Lorna did pray promised a new era of transparency well I'm sorry I don't see that I don't
4:27:37
see this new area of transparency I'm glad you find this funny
4:27:43
I'm glad that you sit there and giggle away fifteen thousand six hundred plus
4:27:49
people have taken the time to write in a petition people have come in here for public questions you're talking about
4:27:55
introducing a tax 60 to 80 million pounds a year that will raise
4:28:01
and you think this is amusing because I quoted you bringing in a new era of
4:28:06
transparency from your quote back then and yet the Democratic deficit is
4:28:12
democratic deficit is why everybody has come here today because they simply do
4:28:19
not trust do not trust what is going on the sales document that went out with
4:28:25
the name consultation attached was no more than a marketing exercise
4:28:32
it did not genuinely seek the views of the public it tried to sway from the
4:28:40
opening pace of the end page the views of the public into where they wanted a
4:28:45
result the call for a referendum the petition that calls for referendum is because the
4:28:52
people of Cambridgeshire built betrayed absolutely betrayed by the elected
4:28:58
representatives not by their elected representatives in March
4:29:03
in wisbech along this side primarily those living in Cambridge City the liberal Democrats
4:29:11
and the labor party I'll go on further about uh
4:29:16
Democratic deficit every time the politicians who want this brought in
4:29:23
talk about gcp proposals the gcp is a body with three people
4:29:31
voting on the board two liberal Democrats so two labor and
4:29:37
one liberal Democrat joined at the hip and bring this forward it is not an officer proposal it is a
4:29:46
political proposal somebody in the debate on the drop my notes because I'm not going to go on to
4:29:52
them somebody today said that I might be thinking this debate for a different reason to
4:29:59
influence the May elections by God their rights by God they are right yes I am
4:30:05
seeking to influence the May elections and you know what I'm seeking to influence on my elections because from
4:30:11
the day that consultation started everybody started talking about this is only plan this is plan a there is no
4:30:18
plan B and it was only when people got upset and livid that people started
4:30:23
saying there may be some changes and at the end of the day it's not the consultation results you're going to be
4:30:29
listening to it's the election results in May when the people say to you this is not good enough they will not trust
4:30:36
you if you manage to survive through
4:30:42
if you manage to survive through the election results results with enough people to actually try and force this
4:30:49
through nobody trusts that an amended stz Zone
4:30:55
stz Zone will be your end game they will always believe always believe that your
4:31:02
ultimate game is to tax the cars off the road to such a degree as the original proposals
4:31:09
I'd also add that all those red herrings put out by Council today we don't know what the
4:31:15
question is you don't know the wording of the question but the question is very cleared out is do people want to pay the
4:31:24
congestion charge proposed by the gcp in return for that bus the improved
4:31:30
services that they've outlined and they're allowed to outline it so it's very clear the date that was missing on
4:31:37
Fred campus account thank you very much next is councilor Jonas King yeah
4:31:45
okay thank you uh thank you chair I think I'm
4:31:50
seeing a bit of a bit of deja vu here because it's the disjointed Administration keeps saying they're
4:31:56
going to do something and it's not a full con conclusion don't worry we'll listen to you um and then they don't listen they just
4:32:02
go ahead and do it anyway and we've seen this happen with great getting School closure recently
4:32:07
um and it's a bit of a repeat scenario um and here we are again with with a
4:32:13
similar situation this I think is a foregone conclusion and I apologize to the public because I
4:32:19
don't think that anything we do on this side to fight for you and to support you is going to help because they've already
4:32:25
made their minds up we know they have they're going to vote down this referendum and they're going to carry on and they're going to introduce this
4:32:31
congestion charge no matter how hard we fight and it's really really shocking to see people like Council again say and I
4:32:39
I can't even I'm gonna have to watch it back because it's incredible to say that the public or protesters in his word
4:32:45
have nothing have nothing counselor gay is absolutely disgusting and that sums
4:32:52
up that absolutely that's the thing the positions the king sit down please did
4:32:58
you address your comments through the chair please not directly to other members thank you okay chair thank you counselor Gay's
4:33:05
comments chair we're absolutely disgusting and sum up this Administration in their position and not
4:33:11
only that they sit there giggling and laughing that's how much they do not
4:33:17
respect the electorate how much they do not respect the public and I apologize to you all today because we know about
4:33:24
how hard we fight we're gonna lose this because they don't care about you they think that they know better chairman
4:33:30
they think they know better and I apologize to you all today and I just hope that that some of them over that
4:33:36
side can really really reach into their hearts and actually change their minds on this thank you
4:33:42
thank you Council Nest singer please
4:33:48
thank you The Making Connections consultation was completed by over 24 000 people
4:33:55
the consultation was wide-ranging and the responses are lengthy and in detail
4:34:00
people took time to fill it in all 24 plus questions and it would be rude and
4:34:06
disrespectful to all of those who took the time to complete that wide-ranging set of questions to totally ignore their
4:34:13
responses and reduce the complex proposal to a single question
4:34:18
it will not surprise any in this room to know that I am broadly not a fan of referendums
4:34:23
political decisions which are in any way controversial are invariably complex and
4:34:29
made on a balance of different benefits and disadvantages the constitution of this Council and
4:34:34
this country is based on representative democracy it is not a perfect system we could
4:34:41
debate the problems of our electoral system at Great length but the advantage of it of representative democracy is
4:34:48
that those of us who stand for election then take on the responsibility of examining complex issues in depth before
4:34:55
coming to our decisions as has been said if there are proposals
4:35:01
brought forward as a result of the making connection consultation they will come back to this Council to be
4:35:07
determined by the elected representatives of our County this referendum proposal would cost an
4:35:14
extraordinary amount of money and get us no further forward to solving the very serious transport issues that we face
4:35:21
though I ask you to vote against this motion thank you thank you councilor Beckett
4:35:30
thank you chair I grew up in Essex in a small village next to a reservoir we had green fields
4:35:37
all around us and a garden big enough for me to spend hours shooting tin cans with an air rifle what I didn't have
4:35:42
though was a usable bus service 16 year old me had the choice of either
4:35:48
begging his parents for a lift or taking a 12 mile round trip on a bike along a very scary roads where cars regularly
4:35:55
hit 80 miles an hour visiting friends was challenging getting a job simply
4:36:00
wasn't an option 16 year old me would also not have got to vote in a
4:36:05
referendum referenda are appealing what could be more democratic than giving the vote to the people right they've become a
4:36:11
popular tool for decision making in recent years but this hides the fact that sadly they are a poor choice for complex issues well they might seem like
4:36:18
a democratic way to let the people have their say the reality is that they can often lead to division and even
4:36:25
dangerous outcomes take for example brexit referendum of 2016. this asked us all whether or not
4:36:32
we want to leave the European Union except of course it didn't ask a school it asked British people over the age of
4:36:37
18 if they wanted to leave the issue of brexit was multifaceted involved a range
4:36:43
of economic social political considerations however the binary nature of the referendum question leave or
4:36:50
remain meant that many of those nuances were lost in that campaign and the public were left with a simplistic
4:36:56
polarized debate that did not accurately reflect the complexities of the issue at hand
4:37:01
is it any Wonder we're still unpicking those complexities eight years later
4:37:07
a referendum also doesn't decide the matter we've all seen brexit the Scottish independence reference do any
4:37:14
of us think those questions are settled the Scots are still coming back for another referendum referenders are not
4:37:19
always the final solution referendums can be manipulated by those with an agenda to push in the
4:37:26
case of brexit we saw how some politicians and media Outlets use misleading and inaccurate information to
4:37:31
sway public opinion the brexit boss anymore with the STC Zed proposals with
4:37:37
similarly seen politicians misleading the public scare mongering I've even heard members of the opposition describe
4:37:43
it as their wedgeship something they want to use to divide us
4:37:48
we mustn't let it divide us into two camps and we're already saddened by the fact that some of the questions earlier
4:37:55
were not able to make it in person because they were scared because they were uncomfortable coming here given
4:38:00
everything that's been said we're better than that this is a really complex issue which requires serious and thorough work
4:38:07
we've seen that with the truly historic levels of response to the gcp consultation
4:38:12
we owe it to the people to let the gcp go through the 24 000 responses and make
4:38:17
sure people's voices are heard this is not a binary decision and we shouldn't see it as one the 16 year olds
4:38:24
of tomorrow would not thank us for doing so
4:38:30
thank you that's been a full debate so I think we're going to move to councilor Bowden now to sum up thank you Council bud
4:38:36
thank you very much indeed Cher well I did wait more in Hope than in
4:38:42
expectation for anyone from the liberal Democrats or from labor to explain just how the current Democratic deficit can
4:38:49
be addressed and with the exception of the extremely helpful contribution from councilor Beckett earlier which we'll
4:38:54
come back to uh we heard nothing at all in fact what we got was an astonishing amount of obfuscation from the labor and
4:39:02
liberal Democrat Administration but I have to warn members the people
4:39:08
are not stupid they know what's going on they can read between the lines they
4:39:14
understand the weasel words they understand the truth now uh we heard comments such as that
4:39:23
democracy is imperfect it's too complicated for ordinary people to understand so we won't bother giving you
4:39:30
a vote we heard that we have a representative democracy well my answer to that is start representing the people
4:39:36
who whom you're meant to represent uh I I think chair you should give an
4:39:42
award to councilor gay for inventiveness because how astonishing he comes up with
4:39:48
a statement made after the election and he read it out at some length starting off with saying we will engage in modal
4:39:53
change didn't mention charging once that's okay
4:40:02
thank you very much indeed all the better it's it's uh it starts drop by saying
4:40:07
engage in modal change didn't mention charging once but somehow the residents Were Meant to understand from engaging
4:40:14
in modal change that what people were voting for by voting labor was they were voting for a congestion charge it's
4:40:19
absolute inventiveness it's just nonsense but chair please consider giving an award to councilor gay for
4:40:25
that one now now
4:40:31
councilor Beckett was really helpful now I fear as has been said before that this motion is going to fail and we won't get
4:40:37
our referendum because the labor party and the liberal Democrats will be whipped solidly against it and that's a
4:40:43
great shame but councilor Becca did make it quite clear that there are elections taking place before the charge comes in
4:40:49
in 2028 and that that is your only chance as residence in Cambridge to have a democratic say
4:40:56
so I'd encourage people to do so one thing I would not encourage people to do who oppose the congestion charge is to
4:41:02
make physical threats against individuals who are councilors that's that's counterproductive it doesn't help
4:41:08
the argument and it also it dissuades people from actually listening to the very strong argument that there is
4:41:13
against a congestion charge what I would encourage you to do is to give a clear political message to the labor party and
4:41:20
to the liberal Democrats councilor Beckett made it clear we've got those elections before the charge comes in
4:41:26
so on May the 4th in Cambridge City in East Cambridge and in Finland if you
4:41:32
feel strongly about this issue vote for candidates who are not from the liberal Democratic party vote for candidates who
4:41:38
are not from the labor party boycott them and send them a clear message they've already got the message from the last two District Council by-elections
4:41:45
to have been councilor Bowden can you stick to the to the motion and not electioneer in this this chamber I think
4:41:51
that's not acceptable so please limit your comments to the motion thank you thank you chair my comments are about
4:41:57
having a referendum on what the alternatives are if we're not going to be given a referendum and the only other voice if they don't get a referendum
4:42:04
that the member the members of the public have is how they will vote in elections now I personally would prefer
4:42:09
them to have the vote leaves their voice through a referendum that's what I'm advocating but if that is denied them by
4:42:16
members here today then we've seen in the last couple of months in those two local elections and District councils
4:42:22
just how scared the Administration has been and we've heard that in their voices today so you members of the
4:42:28
public hearing this on YouTube listening here in this in this building you understand that you have a voice here
4:42:35
you have an opportunity to have a say and if we don't get that referendum today and I don't think we will then you
4:42:41
have a chance to say something about it on May the 4th so I would ask then uh Chad that members
4:42:48
do vote in favor of the referendum now and once again I will call for a recorded vote to take place so that it
4:42:55
will be on the public record which members of this Council are willing to give a voice to the people and which
4:43:02
members of this Council believe that it's better for the people to have their say in the local elections coming up to
4:43:08
make sure that the labor party thank you chair so councilor Bowden has requested a
4:43:14
recording vote do we have anybody to support that it's easily 14th
4:43:24
so Mrs Rowe could you please open an electronic recorded vote on this motion
4:43:30
members in favor of the motion please press the button underneath the word yes members against the motion please press
4:43:38
the button underneath the word no members wishing to abstain please press
4:43:43
the button underneath the word abstain
4:43:53
now
4:44:02
something 24 32 entrance yeah yeah
4:44:11
I'm now closing the vote the result of the vote is 24 votes in
4:44:17
favor 32 against no abstentions the motion is therefore lost
4:44:24
thank you um this has been a long debate we're due for a break at 3 30 we're going to
4:44:29
propose that we take that now before we go on to the rest of business so if we take a 20 minute break we'll see you back at well 22 minute break 3 20 p.m
4:44:36
thank you very much
4:44:47
it's a very hard
4:45:01
thank you
5:05:01
so colleagues could you please take your seats seconds out round three
5:06:31
what's the delay for chair please we'll just wonder what we're Delight
5:06:37
we're ready to start thank you um if you turn back all the pages in your agenda we're back on item eight uh
5:06:45
which is item 8A a very exciting item recommendation to full Council from the Staffing and appeals committee relating
5:06:52
to the senior manager pay data and pay policy statement 2023-2024. can I ask the chair of the
5:06:59
Staffing and appeals committee councilor Murphy to move that the recommendations set out in page two of the agenda be
5:07:05
adopted and asked her Vice chair councilor Shayla to Second councilor
5:07:10
Murphy yes I'd like to move that please would you like to speak to it yes
5:07:16
I'll say a few words so um before you you will see that there
5:07:21
are there's a request for two items pleased to be supported
5:07:27
one relates to senior manager pay data and the pay policy statement that is to
5:07:35
say the approach the council takes to senior pay Awards and the other is pay Gap reporting
5:07:43
and that relates to statutory and non-statory reporting that is to say
5:07:48
gender reporting which is uh statutory and ethnicity which is non-stage tree
5:07:54
the Staffing appeals committee considered all these uh papers the data
5:08:00
and the policies uh very carefully indeed and we supported them unanimously
5:08:06
they do give a rich picture but a couple of points to note
5:08:13
one is that there is a very important metric in the senior manager pay data which
5:08:20
shows according to the Hutton review reflects a level of equity within the workforce
5:08:28
and that is the ratio of chief executive pay compared to the median pay and that
5:08:36
is in this organization is one to six and Hutton says that it needs to be
5:08:44
within one ratio one to twenty so we're doing very well on that metric
5:08:51
another point to note is that the pay Gap reporting has a real data lag the
5:08:57
data is as of last March a year ago so we're looking
5:09:04
at how to get more up-to-date reporting on the actions that are taken in
5:09:09
relation to the latest data but I do urge members to support this please
5:09:18
thank you seconder I'm happy to second that chair
5:09:24
would anybody like to debate this motion
5:09:29
so take it they're all in favor thank you sub emotions carried
5:09:39
I'm gonna call next next is item 8B recommendations to
5:09:45
full Council from the Staffing and appeals committee relating to pay Gap reporting can I ask councilor Murphy to
5:09:51
move the recommendation and ask sit down on page three of the agenda and ask a vice chair councilor Shayla to Second
5:09:57
Council Murphy uh thank you chairman I did actually include in my comments previously
5:10:04
comments about the pay get reporting thank you and again happy to
5:10:11
um second nature would anybody likes to make the motion I think we all agreed that's fine so
5:10:17
we're going to call that Curry thank you very much item number nine is uh allocation of
5:10:24
seats and substitutes to political groups in accordance with political balance rules as chair I move that the allocation of
5:10:30
seats and substitutes on the Committees to political I move that the allocation of seats and substitutes on committees
5:10:36
to political groups in accordance with the political balance rules are set out in the report be adopted
5:10:46
anybody like to debate that are we all in support of it
5:10:51
it's Carrie thank you so then we're going to move back to motions no
5:10:59
okay sorry yes this is an additional item so following
5:11:05
the resignation of former counselor Cox Condren there is a need to appoint a vice chair of communities social
5:11:10
mobility and inclusion committee I am the view that this is a massive urgency as there is a meeting of the committee
5:11:17
on Thursday at the same time it is also proposed to change the vice chair of children and
5:11:22
young people committee to my councilor Michael Atkins
5:11:28
so I move that the proposed appointment of counselor as a vice chair of
5:11:34
community and social mobility and inclusion uh committee commit and Council my taxes and
5:11:41
councilor Michael Atkins as Vice chair of the children young people committee has set out and Report circulated members on the 16th of March to be
5:11:47
public and published on the council website be approved so second picture anybody like to debate that motion
5:11:55
are we happy to support it thank you that's carried Now we move on
5:12:04
to written motion so it's 10. can I ask Council to pray to move and speak to her
5:12:09
motion and set out on pages three and four of the council agenda
5:12:16
thank you chair I'd like to move this motion would you like me to speak now or yeah okay I don't know thank you
5:12:23
the introduction of voter ID requirements is an eye-wateringly expensive solution to a problem that
5:12:30
barely exists the government's own estimate is that it will cost between 65
5:12:36
million pounds and 180 million pounds over 10 years to implement with a
5:12:42
mid-range estimate of 120 million pounds that could pay for a loss of nurses
5:12:50
problem it's claiming to tackle is microscopic the independent electoral commission reports every year that there
5:12:57
is no significant voter fraud indeed the government's decision to pursue this course of action will lead people to
5:13:03
assume that fraud is Rife and election results cannot be trusted which is both manifestly untrue and the route to
5:13:10
tyranny many people who have the right to vote will find themselves prevented from
5:13:16
using that vote as a result of this legislation estimates indicate that two million people in the UK do not have the
5:13:22
right form of ID to vote under the government's new rules and many don't know they need to do something about it
5:13:29
I'm so sorry to cancel it
5:13:36
lack of acceptable ID is not evenly spread 11 of unemployed people don't
5:13:43
have the right form of ID 8 of disabled people just over half of black people
5:13:49
have a driving license compared to over three quarters of white people many young people don't have a passport or
5:13:55
driving license nor do some of the very elderly senior citizens bus pass will be
5:14:02
accepted as voter ID but a Young Person's bus pass won't documentary proof of identity is often
5:14:09
difficult for transgender people who may also be disproportionately disenfranchised
5:14:15
if you don't have approved photo ID you can apply for something called a voter Authority certificate
5:14:22
because the introduction of voter ID has been so rushed most people still don't know about it nationally as of a month
5:14:30
ago only 21 000 of those two million without approved ID had applied for a voter
5:14:37
Authority certificate at that rate it would take eight years for everyone needing a certificate to receive one
5:14:44
in my own District of East Cambridge are just 53 Applications had been received
5:14:49
as of yesterday and they're arriving at the rate of about one per day to put that into context if the two
5:14:56
million people without approved ID were evenly distributed throughout the country East Cambridgeshire could be
5:15:01
expecting to process anything up to 2 500 applications
5:15:07
several months ago I began conversations with senior members and officers of this authority to establish how we could use
5:15:14
our resources such as libraries and family centers to support the effort to
5:15:19
save people's votes from being lost to them and how our staff who worked daily with
5:15:26
underrepresented and marginalized groups could help them protect their right to participate in the Democratic process
5:15:32
and I also submitted this motion since then I have been delighted to see the
5:15:38
way in which our officers and staff have taken this on and engaged with District Council colleagues to reach out to those
5:15:44
most at risk of being disenfranchised much of the work I have asked for in this motion is now underway
5:15:51
but the message still isn't reaching everyone and a lot of people are going to lose their legitimate right to vote
5:15:57
this may this motion notes the concerns expressed by bodies such as the Electoral
5:16:02
commission the association of electoral administrators and the local government Association it resolves to reiterate
5:16:09
those concerns at government level and to take action to support District Council Partners to minimize the damage
5:16:16
to democracy caused by the new requirements I encourage all members to support this motion thank you
5:16:23
thank you do we have a second thank you chair I'd like to Second um
5:16:29
thank you councilor Kindersley pretended not to see me but it did eventually so we'd like to thank Council Duprey and I
5:16:35
like the second emotion for proposing this sensible and reasonable motion um in response to I think what is a
5:16:41
crass piece of legislation from central government when I started my research into the
5:16:47
Voting Act and the motion before us opened the Electoral commission website
5:16:52
page on voter fraud and I read the following statement in the past five years there is no evidence that
5:16:57
large-scale electoral fraud there are only 11 convictions and 16 cautions issued by police the
5:17:04
overwhelming majority of cases either resulted in the police taking no further action or locally resolved by the police
5:17:10
issuing words of advice and yet under this piece of legislation we must now use voter ID to cast a
5:17:17
ballot in all elections in the year 2021-22 60 million votes
5:17:22
were cast including in six parliamentary by-elections and they were just 33 reports of voter fraud with one
5:17:29
conviction and one caution conducting elections is stressful enough being a candidate is stressful enough
5:17:35
and this will obviously place a huge burden on our electrical services team in our district and City councils
5:17:43
voter turnout is already a challenge for us as candidates and I think this will only make it worse
5:17:48
as the motion says there are lots of sectors in society who will be disenfranchised they won't have
5:17:54
photo ID such as a passport or driving license and those will mostly come from people at the lower end of the income
5:18:00
scale they will have to apply for a voter Authority certificate or vac from
5:18:05
District or city council or directly online and this along with other forms of ID will have to be inspected by staff
5:18:12
at the polling station before they can vote we know we can't change this but this is
5:18:17
a solution in search of a problem it's an idea clearly copied from the United States designed to make it harder for
5:18:23
less advantaged people to vote we must be realistic and practical as
5:18:28
the motion mentions we will make an offer to our district colleagues to support voter ID application
5:18:33
facilitation by commissioning libraries so that staff volunteers and it equipment can be made available to
5:18:40
assist residents I think that's entirely sensible we already use our library service to issue
5:18:46
bus passes and this seems like a logical progression we debated earlier the merits are
5:18:51
otherwise of a referendum on the congestion charge and we heard I think that we on this
5:18:58
side of the chamber apparently not Democrat champions of democracy but I've argue that this piece of
5:19:03
legislation is a bigger threat to democracy than anything we heard earlier
5:19:08
I'm proud to Second this motion I fully support it but let me leave members with a quote from former Scottish
5:19:14
conservative leader Ruth Davidson I can't read all of that quote because some of it is um not for uh family
5:19:20
consumption should we say I think they the government can't cite any evidence of voter fraud because I don't think
5:19:26
there is ever any evidence to cite I think it's trying to give a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and that
5:19:33
makes it Politics as performance thank you chair thank you councilor pulact
5:19:39
thank you chair every single week I go on a different street in my world in Abbey to dorno can ask residents about
5:19:45
various consultations various views on local issues and as we approach the city council elections in Cambridge I remind
5:19:52
residents as well about this new requirement of photo voter ID I'll just give you one example because we had a
5:19:57
lot of very good data and statistics already last week I was on the doorstep and I was having a chat with the
5:20:03
resident about a very very local issue on that particular Street and I mentioned by the way we need photo voter
5:20:09
ID for this coming upcoming elections and he said to me yes I do get the polling card so isn't that still still
5:20:15
fine and I didn't explain is it actually different from the following cards you need the photographic form of ID and I
5:20:21
asked him do you have a passport and he says no I've never been out of the UK I've never traveled why would I need one and I said okay fair enough they have a
5:20:27
driving license and he said no I actually don't drive I only use to cycle and work I work quite quite close by and
5:20:34
then I went through I opened the list from the Electoral commission and I went through all the accepted forms of ID and with most people I do find one of the
5:20:41
acceptable ideas but with this gentleman actually he hadn't had any from this list so then I told him okay then we
5:20:47
have to get like this local Authority uh voter ID certificate um and the first question he did came
5:20:53
through his mind was I'm not good at online forms can someone locals can someone local help me can can you help
5:20:59
me can the volunteer help me actually complete the Forum and I think this is really something it will come across
5:21:04
more and more as we are campaigning as we're speaking to our residents and the very difficult part of this discussion
5:21:10
is that we actually don't know how many people are in that situation because of course their estimate but actually don't
5:21:16
know how many people in our area are affected and of course you know not everyone responds on the doorstep we
5:21:21
can't canvas every single door and we have to rely on our ability to outrage
5:21:26
people throughout the different channels um so I'm really glad to see this motion today from counselor Dupre and of course
5:21:33
we support it as as labor counselors as well because it's a really important topic that affects all our residents us
5:21:39
and I'm particularly pleased at the suggestion uh to be commissioning libraries at District level to support
5:21:46
with voter ID applications because that's exactly what the few residents I met who actually need help with this
5:21:51
with someone from the community for example from the local library to actually help them with this application
5:21:56
and in this in this sense I would like to thank the county and District officers everyone who's already doing
5:22:01
some brilliant social media comes uh going through like various local magazines and newspapers as well at the
5:22:07
moment I see a lot more activity on uh actually informing people about this requirement I think it's really really
5:22:12
important um I have to say that unfortunately there were a lot of predictions that this would happen that we wouldn't be
5:22:18
able to outrage to everyone on time not everyone will be involved I see this on the doorstep as if many people who still
5:22:24
don't know about these requirements or there were plenty of Civil Society organizations many briefings circulated
5:22:29
to parliamentary parliamentarians before the elections Act passed um now it's a bit too late to change any
5:22:37
of that although I do think from a pragmatic point of view should be delayed at least until next year when
5:22:42
some of the other changes from the elections act come into play such as the eligibility requirement for EU citizens but as with the government it is how it
5:22:49
is they want to rush through this implementation I think we have to be pragmatic about this and I think this
5:22:54
motion puts forward some very good suggestions to take forward as a county and make sure our residents are informed
5:23:00
thank you thank you councilor Bowden thank you very much indeed share what a
5:23:07
wasted opportunity this is from councilor Duprey if an application had been made
5:23:13
a motion had been put before us to try to increase the awareness of the changes
5:23:19
in the legislation and to ensure that more individuals as many individuals as possible get the necessary voter ID
5:23:25
application through the correct facilitation who would have objected to that we all want to see that but councilor Dupre
5:23:32
couldn't stop herself she had to also bring in some party political Bobs and attacks against the conservative
5:23:38
government knowing perfectly well that that would mean that quite a number of us will not be able to support this motion whereas we're more than happy
5:23:44
more than happy to see that the the overwhelming the large number of individuals to qualify to get the
5:23:50
necessary idea uh uh that they need in order to vote uh but it is a
5:23:57
false equivalence to say that because there have been relatively few voter
5:24:03
fraud convictions over the course of the last five years that there isn't a major problem there have been really
5:24:10
significant electoral uh infringements by candidates over the course of the
5:24:16
last 20 years so I'm absolutely scandalous ones some really large scale ones and I'm sorry to say that it does
5:24:24
cross the political divide uh I'll start off by admitting some of them have been from conservatives some
5:24:30
from labor uh some very notoriously where people will remember from Tower Hamlet's first quite a number a
5:24:37
disproportionate number from euclips there have been a lot of of problems over the course of the last 20 years and
5:24:44
the Integrity of the voting system is absolutely crucial when it comes to the
5:24:49
legitimacy of the whole process and mentioned was just made of of uh of
5:24:55
applying for a uh a library card the idea that there is less Security in
5:25:00
going to vote than there is in getting a library card is one which is worrying so I don't accept that there is no problem
5:25:07
I'm pleased to say that in as far as I'm aware the vast majority of Cambridgeshire there isn't any
5:25:12
significant problem you don't have to go very far outside this County's borders to find places where there have been
5:25:18
problems and if you've traveled a little bit further you'll find areas where there have been very significant very serious problems indeed so I'm pleased
5:25:25
to support measures which ensure that we have a have maximum Integrity for the
5:25:31
electoral system and I'm really sorry not to be able to support emotion which does say that we want to increase
5:25:36
awareness of the change in legislation and want to facilitate voter ID applications and I can't do so because
5:25:42
of the way in which this motion has been worded by councilor to pray
5:25:47
thank you councilor Slaughter thank you Jay I'm going to quickly
5:25:52
reword what I was going to say um but I'll tell you the first bit anyway I've been active in elections
5:25:59
since 1980 and in all the 40 odd years since I don't think I've ever suspected that people were voting fraudulently
5:26:06
there may have been one or two I've certainly spoken with people who
5:26:11
were conflicted as they say now about whether they're partner who I was increasingly suffering from dementia was
5:26:19
really able to vote that day but this is a you know this was it voters and
5:26:24
thinking about it hard my struggle usually has been to persuade people to use their vote
5:26:30
surely that is a a shared experience in this chamber
5:26:36
it is commonplace as I'm sure colleagues will agree to find someone in the last few days of a campaign who suddenly
5:26:43
decides they will actually vote for the first time you're on their door so they suddenly realize it is something to do
5:26:49
that it's important to do it if that person does not have a driving license or a passport hand there will be a
5:26:56
problem as councilor bullet has found even if this voter decides sooner the
5:27:02
form for the BAC is long and complicated I'm gonna have to print out quite a few
5:27:07
just to have them with me and I certainly hope they will be able to have them in the libraries
5:27:12
I was going to assume that all the conservative councilors were equally
5:27:18
bemused and wondered where this idea had come from I for some time didn't actually believe
5:27:25
that these changes were coming there'll be quite a lot of Voters who just won't
5:27:30
believe that that is what is happening in the UK but I now hear that there was
5:27:36
a Groundswell of opinion that we needed um some reforms
5:27:42
and I'm surprised by that um I know that there are going to be problems for our officers on the ground
5:27:48
in Cambridge this week this summer um and I of course will be using my
5:27:53
doing my best to spread the word about photo ID but I do resent my taxes being spent on this extremely expensive and
5:28:00
unnecessary I believe the unnecessary change I regret the trouble that it costs for
5:28:06
our offices and the polling day recruits but we'll do our best in Cambridge at
5:28:11
least they will get another chance next year if they get turned away this but that's not exactly comforting in a
5:28:18
democracy thank you councilor Hawthorne
5:28:24
I think there are two parts to this one is about has the
5:28:31
one is just about reminding people that this is what they need to do this is the new system and this is why this is such
5:28:36
an important motion because you just got to say it again and again and again I
5:28:42
have never turned out to an election with a polling card which is ironic because obviously I stand there asking other people if they're polling card
5:28:47
numbers um and I don't know if I had to have a polling card and I had to go back home I'm sure I would because I'm quite
5:28:54
political but you know I get the point that if you turn up to vote and then you're turned away maybe you don't
5:29:01
bother to come back maybe you haven't fitted it you can't fit it into your day and that's what this is about it's just making sure everyone is prepared people
5:29:08
who don't have that ID can apply for it are aware of it know what's going on and people who have that ID remember to take
5:29:16
it with them um and I look through the motion again and I really don't see that anything
5:29:21
that's so party political or political or an attack on the government which
5:29:27
would make it which would cause problems I I strongly support this this motion I
5:29:33
think it's absolutely what we should be doing encouraging the residents of Cambridgeshire who want to vote to get
5:29:39
photo ID so they can engage and participate in the Democratic process
5:29:45
thank you councilor goldsack thank you chair I'm going to be brief
5:29:51
um share a lot of views a bit no surprise to you of my colleague councilor Bowden so I'll keep them quite
5:29:56
successing there are six points listed in the motion point one I'm going to put
5:30:02
a Freedom of Information in uh request to ask how much we spend on pens for the
5:30:07
chief executive to write to the government for things that uh are not liked by the current Administration
5:30:14
um leave it out point two our sisters dude there's plenty to do at kamashir
5:30:20
County Council don't try and be the district council as well okay they're doing a good job out there leave them
5:30:26
alone okay how about potholes spending some time fixing that because second congestion charge that's the biggest
5:30:32
issue out there at this moment in time but no we'd rather tell the district councils how to do their job the last
5:30:37
point on this is working with Partners including Parish councils to increase awareness District councils are doing
5:30:43
this District councils are telling parish councils and town councils how to do
5:30:48
this how to help them with with this so look look you know is this the greatest
5:30:54
piece of legislation a government has ever put forward no okay there you have it absolutely not is this motion worth
5:31:01
the Papers written on and going to get us anywhere or has it filled us from having another Motion in here in time I'll leave you to decide that one but I
5:31:07
won't be voting for it thank you thank you for your brevity councilor Machining thank you chair very very very super
5:31:14
briefly I will address the point that has been made about libraries I mean it's entirely possible for a library to
5:31:22
decide that they want more proof before they hand over that property to somebody because it might cost them money if that
5:31:27
person doesn't then treat the book with the appropriate respect the problem is to be entitled to vote you already have
5:31:33
to do that you already have to register and be part of the Electoral register so the idea that you add another thing on
5:31:40
top of everything else I speak here as somebody with a PhD who spent three thousand pounds for the right to build
5:31:45
in this country that was one of the most difficult things I've done even for somebody who
5:31:50
probably is in the upper half of the population in terms of being able to manage the bureaucracy of these kind of
5:31:56
things there is absolutely no way at all that there is any justification for additional groups for people to jump
5:32:02
through and it doesn't compare to a library card thank you councilor Tierney
5:32:08
thank you chair I'm sort of on the fence on this because I wasn't going to lose any sleep if the
5:32:14
government didn't do it I'm not losing any sleep because the government has done it I can understand it it's actually incredibly easy for someone to
5:32:21
go and vote fraudulently if they wanted to under the previous system would be almost no effort whatsoever they'd
5:32:26
simply go along to the polling station say they were the name of someone who was in the area and as long as that
5:32:31
person hadn't already voted they'd be able to vote so um incredibly easy to do and I'm sure I've done experienced it
5:32:38
myself but then how would I so um but I'm sure it must go on all over the place I have no doubt about that so I
5:32:44
think it's perfectly sensible to ask people Friday when they vote do I think it will stop loads of people from voting no I don't because almost everyone has
5:32:52
some form of idea and if they don't they can apply for one of these voter permission slips I've been on the doorstep for several months now
5:32:59
campaigning most people that I've spoken to are not only in support of it they don't think it goes far enough they think that they should be including
5:33:05
postal voting as well which they feel it is life for for a misuse I don't know
5:33:10
whether that's the case or not but certainly my constituents seem to support it and in Finland the district council is doing a fantastic job of
5:33:16
making people aware of the new rules both in English and in other languages and so I feel that plenty of information
5:33:21
is out there thank you Council account
5:33:30
yeah thank you chairman it's amazing isn't it that um we want to hear what the residents have
5:33:36
to say we want to hear their boats when it comes to consultation on council tax the majority don't count when it comes
5:33:43
to massive demonstration against the congestion charge to the majority of that count but when it comes to voting there's
5:33:50
something going on here instead of concentrating the County Council business as usual the liberal Democrats
5:33:56
and the labor parties prefer to concentrate on National issues writing papers letters instead of fixing the
5:34:03
potholes on our roads which I might add they cut the budget in real terms this year
5:34:08
now I would agree with one of the comments that was made if somebody wants to vote we should not
5:34:15
to do anything to step in the way we should encourage them to vote and I hope we all do do that but I feel pretty
5:34:21
confident chair pretty confident that the people who oppose the congestion charge will find
5:34:28
the way to vote in the mayor elections the people who live around koten and cottonm will find a way to vote in their
5:34:35
my elections and I think you will find that people normally find a way to vote when they really care deeply about
5:34:42
something as you will find out thank you chair
5:34:48
councilor Atkins thank you Council Atkins I don't see any
5:34:54
other hands which means we'll move to council to pray to sum up please
5:35:01
thank you chair I'd like to thank councilor Sanderson as chair of cosmic for his support in seconding this motion
5:35:07
and Council abulat for demonstrating the uncertainty and lack of information that is still prevalent about this issue
5:35:14
councilor Bowden referred to other forms of electoral fraud carried out by candidates which nothing to do with
5:35:19
identification of Voters at polling stations and which would not be solved by the introduction of voter ID he also
5:35:26
referred to organized abuses of the postal voting system and I cannot help but refer him to very recent events in
5:35:33
Hertfordshire and further afield in which conservatives have sent out postal vote application forms with a return
5:35:39
address to the local conservative Association and a privacy statement at the bottom which actually prevents them
5:35:45
from passing the applications onto the local elections office both councilor Bowden and councilor
5:35:51
Tierney warned Darkly that just because we can't see large levels of voter fraud doesn't mean they're not there that's
5:35:56
the same argument as the one used for throwing salt over your shoulder as you walk down the road because it keeps the
5:36:02
Tigers away as proven by the absence of tigers just to reassure councilor
5:36:07
goldsack that we on this side are capable of doing two or even three things at once no one is talking about the County
5:36:14
Council trying to be the district council this motion just asks that we offer our own resources to support the
5:36:20
district in getting the message out it's called party partnership voter ID will
5:36:25
transform local elections and not in a good way turn out at council elections is already just 30 percent or less I
5:36:32
agree with councilor slatter that it's not as if the biggest problem with our democracy is that too many people are
5:36:37
voting the government's plans will reduce that number still further at huge expense with disproportionate effects it
5:36:46
is now I believe too late to avoid this incoming electoral disaster all we can do is to seek to minimize the damage
5:36:52
inflicted which I hope members will choose to do today in supporting this motion
5:36:58
thank you so let's move to the vote then Mrs Rowe could you please open the
5:37:03
electronic vocal Council degree
5:37:12
house sarcastic prayers
5:37:18
are called evoke do you have 13 other people to join you in that
5:37:25
thank you so Mrs Ray could you please open uh a recorded electronic vote
5:37:36
oh the system has crashed so we're just resetting it and then we will do the
5:37:41
vote I can I can choose for you if you like
5:38:13
that's not recorded oh oh it's here so please cast your votes now
5:38:20
members in favor of promotion please press the button underneath the word yes
5:38:25
members against the motion please press the button underneath the word no members wishing to abstain please press
5:38:32
the button underneath the word abstain
5:38:41
that's funny chair I'm now closing the vote the result of the vote is 31 votes in favor
5:38:48
20 against no abstentions the motion is therefore carried thank you let's move on to the final uh
5:38:57
member motion the emotion of the uh meeting uh this is one submitted by councilor Alex boulat can I ask Council
5:39:04
Bluff to move and speak to her motion and set out on pages five and six of the council agenda
5:39:12
thank you very much chair at least a very cheerful and hopefully cross-party topic today
5:39:17
I didn't go to school in the UK but I had the pleasure to be tested on questions about British values when I
5:39:24
put my life in the UK test part of the citizenship process I went through a few years ago migrants who aspire to be
5:39:31
citizens learn about the fundamental British values democracy rule of law individual liberty and respect and
5:39:38
tolerance the motion I'm proposing today is about the fundamental British value of respect and tolerance when I was
5:39:46
elected to this Council almost two years ago now one of the things people quickly noticed was that I was not born in the
5:39:52
UK and while the vast majority of people welcome counselors from A diversity of backgrounds I had my fair share of
5:39:59
comments from people especially on social media but also some in person who are not happy that someone like me is in
5:40:05
politics not because of my politics which is a fair enough thing to criticize but because of things I cannot
5:40:11
change such as where I was born by the time I entered politics I was already very used to hearing the go back home
5:40:17
comments because I had been campaigning in the migrants rights space for a number of years
5:40:23
so when someone told me to go back home after I announced my election result I
5:40:28
used my knowledge of British values for my then recent citizenship test to respond to him so I said I went on and
5:40:35
said dear sir I would very much like to get back to my flat in Cambridge but I'm
5:40:40
on the bus stop right now I'm waiting for the city three bus anyone else will see the three it was canceled and I
5:40:45
still have no clue when the next one is showing up so could you please give me a lift so I can back go back home a bit
5:40:51
quicker on on a serious note now I got every type of comments ranging from quite
5:40:58
quite wild messages on the extreme end on social media so just someone always remember someone once telling me he
5:41:05
wants to kill all Eastern Europeans like myself to what I would call quite moderate and some thumbs quite cheerful
5:41:12
funny comments such as people calling me a traitor which I always appreciate but the sad truth is like many others in
5:41:18
politics this kind of stuff really doesn't affect me anymore because like many in politics I got used to hearing
5:41:24
this all the time the personal of course can make us political but it doesn't mean we have to be unnecessarily
5:41:31
personal in politics we can exercise our Free Speech which I support and it is a
5:41:36
great passionate with each other while still being fundamentally a decent person so I had been really saddened to see
5:41:43
especially in recent months the level of abuse some of our fellow counselors cross-party of all different political
5:41:49
parties have been subject to and of course members in this Council are not alone in this looking at the Local
5:41:56
Government association's Census from 2022 as many as seven in ten surveyed
5:42:01
counselors reported experiencing abuse and intimidation in the last year alone that is seven in ten so in referendum
5:42:09
terms as with this debate is today that's almost a super majority of counselors were experiencing abuse and
5:42:15
intimidation so basically a lot of people are having quite a bad time for simply doing their job in politics and
5:42:22
saying why they believe in debates so I don't want to mention any more examples because it is will be quite uncivil of
5:42:28
me to even repeat some of the stuff that's being said about elected members again of all different political parties
5:42:34
in this Council in the public domain I don't want to see more good people of any political party feeling like they
5:42:41
have to quit politics because they reach a point where they are unable to balance negativity they face day in and day out
5:42:48
with their mental health needs so what could we all of us do individually we
5:42:53
can all reflect on how we behave with our colleagues with our political opponents and with our residents as a
5:43:00
council this motion is asking you members to endorse debate not hate LGA awareness campaign and also as a council
5:43:06
we need to work better with the police to actually train us if when and how to respond to the sadly increasing abusive
5:43:13
emails and other Communications some of us often get when we are speaking about Council matters finally I also propose
5:43:20
considering a live action plan to manage the risks that too many of our members
5:43:25
and officers are subjected to when fulfilling Council duties I don't want this to be a space today where we ask
5:43:32
for personal apologies because of things we have said even today or in the past or make party political points because
5:43:38
it is a really important and cross-party topic so I really appreciated counselor counts who said that his group is happy
5:43:45
to support this motion and counselor godzak who will be speaking seconding this motion today as I understand it
5:43:50
because it really shows this is a topic Beyond political divides I generally hope this motion can help unanimous
5:43:56
support thank you thank you do you have a second Council gold secondary yeah I'm very happy the second this motion and uh
5:44:03
talk now if that's okay chair um I think the motion from councilor Bula
5:44:09
is uh very welcome spot on um the uh recommendations are all
5:44:15
endorsed by my colleagues and I um I'm just going to give a little bit of personal anecdote to this at the same
5:44:21
time um when councilor bulat received unprecedented abuse
5:44:27
I didn't go on to Facebook or onto Twitter and say here you go Alex I'm standing with you I contacted her
5:44:34
personally and send her a direct message and said I'm with you okay regardless of color
5:44:40
rosette I'm with you you keep doing what you're doing okay the same thing happened when a counselor who's just
5:44:46
left us has just left us I contacted her wished her well thanked her for what she'd done I have regular chats with
5:44:53
many members in this room across the Divide we have many laughs and jokes I can even tell you uh that uh two
5:45:01
independent support teams you've probably never even heard of in terms of football so I think this camaraderie and
5:45:06
coming together I was told this when when we first joined that more often than not we have so much more in common
5:45:13
than that which divides us now why do we not bring that forward and
5:45:18
maintain that I don't know is the answer I don't know I'm guilty of it myself we get wound up we get caught up in the
5:45:25
thing but I think what councilor Alex has brought today is something that we can all get behind and ask for a better
5:45:32
chamber can I just say at the time of what's the time now at the time of four
5:45:38
o'clock today yeah eight o'clock when I left home this morning right and the debate chamber in here today right this
5:45:46
is probably one of the best debate Chambers today that I've been involved with right I think it's been back and
5:45:52
forth I don't think there's been any real animosity I don't think there's been anything uh personal I think it's
5:45:58
being forthright and factual okay and if that's the way we can keep it this is what Alex wants now in terms of the
5:46:05
excerpt at third party support you'll all have in your email because I've just read it you'll have it in your email and
5:46:11
an email from one of the residents today telling all of us counselors exactly what we are and where we should go based
5:46:17
on the decision reached this afternoon on the orchard okay that's the kind of stuff that can
5:46:22
escalate I am aware of local members at District level that have had restraining orders put on people because of things
5:46:29
that have come along okay this is the protection we want I'll be very happy on behalf of our group to work with Alex
5:46:34
moving this forward and to some of the recommendations we come I'm very proud of the second dimension thank you
5:46:43
thank you Council Machining thank you chair um last speech for me today I promise
5:46:50
um I just wanted there's a number of things said I'll come back to some of that
5:46:57
um I will I would like I said I would I apologize I decided earlier I would take the
5:47:03
opportunity of a speech in this debate the first of all a tribute to our former colleague Hillary who left us recently
5:47:09
just in order to look after her mental health after a lot of the behavior that
5:47:15
we are talking about today like these things are real Hillary was an enormous success story for the labor party and
5:47:21
for this Council and I have said many times in many different forums just how lasting an impact she's had and how much
5:47:28
better it would have been if she'd had been more than the two years she had and I'm afraid that there were people in
5:47:35
this chamber earlier who were responsible for some of the things that she has had to endure and that had such
5:47:41
a terrible impact on the way she felt and I do want people to absolutely
5:47:46
please and to do exactly what councilor Gold's doctor said if these things happen please take
5:47:52
positive action and I think what council of Goldstock said is a perfectly good example the positive action there are a
5:47:58
number of things that could be done please don't stand by because this is killing us it really really is and I
5:48:05
decided very very very consciously that I would not go into some of the things that I have had
5:48:11
um and you know it does it does have an effect and it's not appropriate that one
5:48:18
should just be expected to lump it it's just completely completely not appropriate and one of the things that I was hoping
5:48:26
we could do first of all do please take positive action if you see it happening it doesn't matter if you agree with us
5:48:31
or not you can still stay here in the chamber and vote whichever way you want but if your colleagues fall away because
5:48:38
they can't manage we all have a collective responsibility and I think we should really really accept that the
5:48:44
other thing I was going to say is that there has been and I said I wouldn't mention any of the stuff I've had no
5:48:49
matter how graphic and how upsetting it was but there are a couple of things that have started to come through to me
5:48:55
recently to my inbox which have worried me tremendously more than any graphic or abuse content I've received previously
5:49:02
and I make this point because I'm unlike my colleagues who are far braver than I am I cannot manage social media it's
5:49:08
just not going to happen I wouldn't be standing here I wouldn't be in this job if I had to deal with Twitter
5:49:14
and therefore I can make the choice not to the problem is that stuff still comes
5:49:20
um which is fine I suppose uh the problem is a couple of the comments I've had
5:49:26
recently have really really worried me one of them dear councilor I completely oppose everything you stand for ETC and
5:49:32
so forth and if you stand for something like that then I am not surprised you are receiving abuse
5:49:39
second email dear counselor you post everything you stand for ETC and so forth and if you take policy positions
5:49:45
like that I am afraid you are deserving of what you are getting I have had these
5:49:50
emails and they have made me feel tremendously worse than some of the other stuff which
5:49:56
might simply have been things scrolled onto my face I don't particularly care about that the problem is what happens
5:50:02
when somebody sits back looks at that because I know they have and decides actually
5:50:08
you're driving policies through the council that make you deserving of that I don't know where we're going to end up
5:50:15
so I would like to beg that people really take the time to really consider
5:50:21
how they can make a change to a situation like this because I don't think it's acceptable and you know some
5:50:27
of us might be able to last longer under this pressure eventually all of us will buckle because it's just not right
5:50:34
and if something is out there in the world is wrong you have to go out and change it that's your moral imperative
5:50:40
whatever your job whatever your position so I would really like to ask people that after the debate today and I have
5:50:46
to say for probably the first time actually today when I heard councilor gorsad speaking
5:50:52
today I I smiled like I had a genuine proper you know it's been quite tense today I haven't smiled a lot
5:51:00
um but I did smile when I heard him and it made me feel better so I would like really to think that it's possible for
5:51:05
us to do something positive to make this better for us because we're all the Richer political thank you
5:51:12
thank you councilor slatter thank you chair um I haven't had to
5:51:18
um jump through bureaucratic or cultural Hoops to become a citizen of this
5:51:23
country but there are some bits of our culture that are absolutely rubbish
5:51:29
um and I hope you don't feel the need to memorize or um use those and that there are some Proverbs which people actually
5:51:36
use but they are not true just because their problem is the what
5:51:41
I'm thinking of is sticks and stones may break my bones but calling me names won't hurt me
5:51:48
anything so transparently rubbish should never have even got into the English language let alone be repeated through
5:51:54
generations we can see what it's well it's trying to help somebody toughen up but to my knowledge
5:52:02
um broken legs are one thing upsets hauntings of words are quite
5:52:10
another if I read on social media all counselors are liars I make no excuses I
5:52:18
am upset by that I'm actually upset about it about it for
5:52:23
all counselors I mean I've shared my ward is that not a good way of putting it with labor and with conservatives
5:52:30
we've gone on rotors together to do drop-ins I respect those who stand for election particularly those who get
5:52:36
elected I guess they you know they're taking on a job on everybody's behalf and so I welcome what councilor growled
5:52:42
Sackett said I thoroughly um support what um Council aboulata said it does help when you're on being
5:52:50
buffeted on social media when some kind resident slips in a just a minute that's
5:52:56
not fair she's doing her best you know it might be fixing a Potter or a noisy manhole
5:53:01
um but and that does help doesn't it so even though we cannot stop the insult
5:53:08
um uh or the defamation of that being said we can help heal people by being
5:53:15
kind and I will try to remember because now Alex is born to my attention so that
5:53:20
we should do that and I'm very pleased to hear that Mark goldstacks has done that and we need to do more of that
5:53:27
um not just in the chamber of course it's in just ordinary everyday life there is just one thing I don't agree with and that is the debate not hate I
5:53:35
know it's a catchy rhyming slogan but actually I mean my experience of school
5:53:40
debates is that it didn't get it encourages polarization and an Us in
5:53:45
them I'd rather have engaged not rage but um I don't think I think it's a bit late to do that but also I'll still vote
5:53:52
for the motion thank you are you proposing an amendment foreign
5:54:00
thank you very much and I won't bother you for very long I'm delighted just to be able to speak in in favor of this
5:54:06
motion as well as I'm sure everybody is I I feel slightly like civil faulty really it's a special subject but
5:54:12
bleeding obvious but I I just wanted to say one or two things that I feel privileged to work together as part of a
5:54:18
joint Administration with members of a different party I feel privileged to work on committees with members of all parties collaborating on doing the best
5:54:25
that we can for our residents in Cambridgeshire and I've enjoyed all of that
5:54:30
um I'm really impressed that this is a cross-party motion and I'm very pleased with that as well that speaks volumes
5:54:36
for us really um it's great that we can do things with mutual respect even when we disagree and
5:54:42
I think it's vital that reason debate is the way that things are decided not who
5:54:48
shouts loudest not who protests most but recent debates so that arguments can
5:54:53
avoid the tyranny of the loud voice um if anybody is deterred from standing
5:54:59
as a member of this Council or any Council by the threats that they might face then that's a damaging effect on
5:55:05
our democracy and it's the beginning of a way down a very slippery and unpleasant slope so I would just like to
5:55:11
say thank you very much indeed and I fully support this motion thank you councilor Shayla
5:55:18
thank you very much chair um coming from a science background I'm often surprised at the importance of
5:55:24
debate in science instead of debate we generally look for evidence or do
5:55:30
another experiment and while a bus stop might be fun to watch I think when people vote they vote
5:55:36
for consensus rather than polarization an adversarial system is not always the
5:55:41
best way to get things done or find the truth it leads more often to compromise
5:55:46
and loss than win win and as councilor goldsack says looking
5:55:52
for what we have in common we can find more resilient Solutions an
5:55:57
agreement that is in everyone's interest is more likely to hold clearly there are differences that are
5:56:04
more party political so we need majorities and allies and strategies and all the rest
5:56:11
but one would be pretty insecure not to support a good idea coming from the opposition
5:56:17
it could happen when people behave badly in public it seems to legitimize or normalize
5:56:25
this is especially from some pretty appalling behavior on social media clickbait and language inflation
5:56:34
there is a curious effect seen in the United States with regards to the death penalty if a state is experiencing a
5:56:43
rising rate of capital crime and they get rid of the death penalty
5:56:49
the number of capital crimes boom when on the other hand a state has a
5:56:56
falling rate of capital crime and they put a death penalty in place Capital
5:57:01
crime increases quite opposite to the idea that it would be more of a deterrent it
5:57:08
seems to legitimize or normalize killing we are currently seeing an upswing and
5:57:14
bad behavior but towards members let's look after each other thank you chair
5:57:21
thank you Council newest member of the council Council foreign
5:57:26
and indeed I am your newest member and I'm I'm phenomenally impressed by this
5:57:32
loving at the end of our debate today which is very encouraging and it's
5:57:37
certainly loads well for the future now I am a new member of this body but I'm
5:57:42
not new to politics I've been involved in political life for the best part of 40 years and over that time I've seen
5:57:50
some very bad behavior by national politicians and local politicians in fact in the election in which I stood
5:57:57
most recently on national election I just stand as a parliamentary candidate in chingford and Woodford green where
5:58:03
the incumbent is in Duncan Smith and that was probably the nastiest election that I've ever been involved in
5:58:10
now I've got pretty thick skin but even I was discomforted by the way
5:58:17
that not the some of the participants in the election behaved
5:58:23
um uh for example in London Smith was sent excrement and dead rats and all
5:58:30
sorts of very nasty not a way that I certainly would support uh and there
5:58:36
were other things aimed at me and it was very uncomfortable uh I would not I seriously wondered whether I should
5:58:43
stand again for any election and certainly my wife was very unhappy that
5:58:49
I was doing so but I'm glad I'm here um and what I would ask us to do in the
5:58:54
context of this uh motion is to think across the water
5:59:00
um where our friends in America have very uncomfortable Politics as well
5:59:05
obviously I have in mind um and particularly the outcome of
5:59:11
Donald Trump's uh election uh that period as president and the events that
5:59:17
took place on June the 6th that was just I mean it puts democracy uh you know
5:59:24
into the power it destroyed democracy we can do better in this country we can be
5:59:30
civilized in the way we talk to each other and debate with each other and I
5:59:35
hope that we will continue to do so so I very much support this motion thank you councilor Bowden
5:59:44
thank you I'm very pleased to hear all the comments which have been made so far there's always a danger when we are too
5:59:51
self-congratulatory that we fail fully to look at ourselves and think of some of the problems which can occasionally
5:59:56
exist the first thing is that as far as the running of this council is concerned and
6:00:03
every council is concerned robust and open political debate is absolutely vital
6:00:09
it's it's really important that people aren't afraid aren't fearful of putting their point of view across and it is
6:00:15
absolutely unacceptable for individuals as we heard earlier today to be personally threatened as a result of
6:00:22
what they do as a counselor and and that has to be called out every single time but what what's encouraging robust
6:00:30
political debate we clearly must not be offensive in what
6:00:35
we do clearly there's a line to be drawn and we cannot cross that line but that doesn't mean to say that we have a right
6:00:42
not to be offended I'm offended by some of the political comments made by people I don't agree with I'm offended by the
6:00:49
comments but they've got every right to say it and I've got I've got no right to say they shouldn't say it and we've got
6:00:54
to make sure that we protect freedom of speech at the same time as ensuring that those who are being offensive
6:01:00
are called out and there was Council slutter first who mentioned one area which is a particular
6:01:06
problem and that is what happens all too frequently on social media and I have to
6:01:11
say that behavior on social media tends to be a great deal worse than Behavior which takes place in person and we all
6:01:18
have to recognize that how on Earth it gets sorted out as a whole I just don't know I'm afraid my solution to it is not
6:01:25
a very good one which is almost totally to withdraw from social media and I do nothing but post absolute factual
6:01:30
matters and I don't then get involved in all the uh descent into the mud that can
6:01:36
follow that and maybe that's a coward's way out but I have to say that I find
6:01:41
that that's the uh most palatable way as far as I'm personally concerned
6:01:46
but one of the things that we also have to recognize again this is all party all parties just as in the last debate it
6:01:52
happens at the conservative party labor party liberal Democrats happens all over the place and they're talking about
6:01:58
nationally we see this happening in various councils and that is we have to be careful about what happens within our
6:02:04
own individual parties and there have been numerous occasions all around the country all political
6:02:10
parties where bullying goes on within individual parties and within individual
6:02:16
groups and that is just as unacceptable just as unacceptable as when it happens
6:02:21
across the party political across the chamber in part of politics so let's not be too self-congratulatory about it all
6:02:28
and let's always be aware that there are always dangers that when passions get
6:02:33
too high that individuals do cross a line and sometimes they cross a line without even realizing they're crossing
6:02:39
a line and when that line is crossed people need to be called out on it thank you chair thank you councilor GoodLife
6:02:46
thank you chair as someone who works in the mental health field part of my work is to deliver supervision to staff in
6:02:53
schools and to assist with their difficult and international jobs and workloads I naturally look out for
6:02:58
others and I'm a qualified Mental Health First aider I've been horrified to see the way in which many of us have been treated in
6:03:05
this role what we do is difficult it puts us out there no it shouldn't it can
6:03:10
and does make us vulnerable I agree with this motion the sentiment behind it but I'd also like to remind us
6:03:17
all that asking for support reaching out for help and supporting each other is essential and should never be seen as a
6:03:23
weakness I'm speaking to myself as much as others here but we do need to look after ourselves and we should see this
6:03:29
as an essential part of our role our mental health is as important as our physical health and I'd urge us all to
6:03:35
look out for ourselves thank you so thank you before we move to councilor bullet to sum out some up um I'm not
6:03:43
supposed to speak in debates but last year I had a bit of a struggle during the summer I just wanted to say the first person to reach out to me was
6:03:48
counselor goldsack so I really appreciate that Mark it made it all different so thank you very much he has to do that
6:03:55
thank you chair and thank you everyone for participating in this cross-party debate it's really great to see some
6:04:02
consensus finally in the council chamber today thank you so much to counselor goldsec for seconding this motion
6:04:09
um I think a lot of you know good points have been raised in terms of like being able to support each other as well as
6:04:15
work course party on this important issue councilor Bowden I do agree on the importance of robust debate uh I
6:04:23
definitely think we have to have like criticism of various policies within this Council and I do a greater comment
6:04:29
to look within our own parties as well and how not only 11 members but some of our membership can behave as well within
6:04:35
our own political parties uh councilor machine thank you for being open with your own experiences on this and for
6:04:42
paying tributes to the work of our friend Hillary Cox Condren as well and of course there are a lot of different reasons behind resignations but it's
6:04:49
fair to say in the current political situation across the country like those kind of issues around intimidation abuse
6:04:55
do play a big part in some of the decisions of many politicians across different political parties to resign or
6:05:01
not to withstand anymore in the next elections thank you to councilor Slater for sharing some funny anecdotes about
6:05:09
British British values as well um I didn't choose the the title of debate not hate it's actually the local
6:05:15
government association's campaign but I do think you can send them a suggestion
6:05:20
perhaps in the next iteration of their LJ campaign on the issues around mental
6:05:27
health I think it's really important one counselor goodlift has been saying because receiving a threat or some
6:05:34
abusive comments can actually make the difference between you having a simply bad day or a difficult day in politics
6:05:39
and you actually being into a mental health crisis and I think it's really important to recognize this when we
6:05:45
think about our own actions um and I have to say that you know personally I do have a high tolerance of
6:05:50
this often people tell me like you block everyone on social media don't block anyone even some of my like the worst opponents tell me all the time of stuff
6:05:56
I mean like it's your free speech feel free to say anything you want to me on Twitter but we have to recognize that how we personally feel and how we behave
6:06:03
is not necessarily how others behave so some other people like may actually want to protect themselves from such comments
6:06:09
because they would deal with it and respond to them differently so we have to kind of include diversity of views
6:06:14
and reactions to this and remember not everyone has the same tolerance to abusive comments as you know perhaps
6:06:20
some of us do uh counselor could as well thank you for your support and the points about the impact of abuse that
6:06:27
can have on the impact of the while running of democracy as well I think some very important points there uh
6:06:33
counselor Shaler again related to that in terms of like how do we make democracy more functioning that's really important we keep those considerations
6:06:40
in mind and um for our newers the counselor counselor Asif welcome to the Council of
6:06:46
course and thank you for sharing your experience as well in the Parliamentary campaign I think like this kind of thing
6:06:52
is not as a council it happens in all sorts of local and National election so I think it's a topic for National debate
6:06:58
in that sense as well as the impact on on the local local democracy as well so
6:07:03
I'll end here I would like to to thank everyone for supporting uh this motion I do hope it can be unanimous and once
6:07:10
this I mean hopefully it will be supporting if it's supported I would invite anyone from the council to come
6:07:15
up with suggestions and recommendations for what we can do further as a council because one of the points in the motion
6:07:21
is to refer to Constitution and ethics for Live Action Plan around some of those issues so if anyone has any
6:07:26
suggestions I'm quite happy to collect them cross-party and to bring them forward and work with members of the of
6:07:32
the committee on on that on this very important topic so thank you everyone for your support today
6:07:39
so let's move to those should we do a show of hands all those who favor the motion raise
6:07:45
your hands now
6:07:59
any any against issue any against
6:08:05
any abstentions that's Carriage unanimously then thank you very much
6:08:12
item number 11 more questions um next we consider item 11a is set out
6:08:17
in the agenda Cambridgeshire and Peterborough combined Authority overview and scrutiny oral questions which we dealt with accordance to the protocol
6:08:23
set out in Annex one of part 4.1 the council procedure rules the council's Constitution can I remind you that
6:08:30
councils may ask questions for a response by the council's appointee to the combined Authority and it's
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appointees to the government Authority scrutiny committee which hasn't met which relates decisions to the combined Authority board as set out in the
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generic report provided on pages 52 to 54 of your agenda can you please raise
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your hand if you wish to ask a question of counseling the single the single the council's appointee to the board
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yeah thank god um good
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unfortunately there's not been a meeting of the overview scrutiny committee since our last council meeting right there was
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it was yesterday okay good okay B I propose to take questions
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on Fire Authority issues this will be dealt with in accordance with the guidelines agreed by the council the
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report from the fire authorities included on the council agenda on pages 55-59
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before I open the item up to questions I'd like to invite the chair of the Fire Authority councilor Edna Murphy to
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introduce the reports thank you chair um I I don't really have
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many um points to make about this report because it is self-explanatory we're
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very proud of a lot of the things that we are doing in the Fire Authority we're
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making a huge amount of progress uh with um apprenticeships with inclusion and uh
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in particular we have been dealing with of late the
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inspection the national inspection which we're in the middle of but um so far
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obviously it's not concluded but so far the team has just really excelled themselves so we are feeling very
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positive about that but I'm very happy to take any questions are there any questions
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no thank you that concludes that item final items on today's agenda is written
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questions under Council procedure rule number 9.2 no questions were notified by the deadline that concludes the business
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of the agenda for today can I thank members of the contributions all the public attended and anybody's still watching on YouTube which is quite
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unlikely but thank you very much everyone so
